7 ms·

I've noticed many airports have HSBC plastered all over the walls. This has been amusing to me after it came out that HSBC runs the world's largest money launde

by janj 13y ago

I've noticed many airports have HSBC plastered all over the walls. This has been amusing to me after it came out that HSBC runs the world's largest money laundering operation for drug cartels. It's surreal thinking about how TSA and customs will put away recreational drug users for life but the bank that funds the largest drug cartels operates out in the open. Our system is broken at every level.

Wingman4l7 13y ago
(For those interested in more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSBC#Money_laundering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSBC#Money_laundering) Never mind the fundamental fact that if your fine was less than the profit you gained from your illegal activity, you can just write it off as a business expense. Fines have to be punitive or they will have no effect; it's simple math.
- wozniacki 13y ago
  I am always in constant bewilderment at how galling some of these corporate crimes are. How does one even go about planning these? Do the chief executives [1] [2] sit with the board members and discuss the tradeoffs of turning a blind eye to some hanky-panky stuff going on in Mexico? [3] I know that they have legal counsels and all. But do they really sit down and weigh the legal ramifications and discuss who shall be thrown under the bus, if things should flare up? Whether its a Angelo Mozilo of Countrywide Financial [4] or a Maurice R. Greenberg[5] of AIG or even a Calisto Tanzi of Parmalat [6] [7]; do these people even have a good pulse of the prosecution climate of a given administration, the likelihood of getting caught and the possible fines and sentences before they choose to set these financially murky things in motion? Or are they more like hot-shot, fledgling politicians [8] who think they are invincible and can never possibly get caught, in a scandal? If anything, the public has come to be struck in awe of these people and their mettle, rather than find their actions, reprobatory. The slap on the wrist fines and sentences ( if any at all ) that major executives and their houses have received, only reaffirms the notion that one -above all other skills and qualifications - has to be a skilled manipulator of fact, circumstance and public opinion, to head a large and highly profitable enterprise, these days. After all the cake and watermelon, I am loath to admit that deviousness and calculated deceit has become sexy. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Geoghegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Geoghegan [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Gulliver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Gulliver [3] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-16/hsbc-aided-money-laundering-by-iran-drug-cartels-probe-shows.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-16/hsbc-aided-money-la... [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Mozilo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Mozilo [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_R._Greenberg#Legal_issues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_R._Greenberg#Legal_issu... [6]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmalat_bankruptcy_timeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmalat_bankruptcy_timeline [7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmalat#Financial_fraud_.282002.E2.80.932005.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmalat#Financial_fraud_.28200... [8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edwards#Indictment_and_trial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edwards#Indictment_and_tri... Edit: Citations
  - Wingman4l7 13y ago
    > But do they really sit down and weigh the legal ramifications and discuss who shall be thrown under the bus, if things should flare up? I would think they'd avoid putting down anything on paper for fear that it would be discoverable (in a legal sense) if/when the SHTF.
    - wozniacki 13y ago
      My point precisely. It sure is a lot of stuff to keep unentangled in your head without ever so much as jotting it down in your daily planner for fear that it might someday be deemed admissible in court. I wonder what kind of apps they'd trust to transmit or store information on their iPhones and iPads. Speaking of technology that executives see fit to use, here's the billionaire owner of Dallas Cowboys, Jerry Jones, pictured using a flip phone: https://twitter.com/CorkGaines/status/386673573210750976/photo/1 https://twitter.com/CorkGaines/status/386673573210750976/pho...
      - Wingman4l7 13y ago
        Makes me think of all the popular media about the mob where a major plot point is getting hold of the "books" (in which the money from all the dirty business dealings is tallied up).
      - WalterBright 13y ago
        Eh, I use a flip phone, too. My car is a '72 Dodge. Guess I like the classics :-)
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
  - weland 13y ago
    > I know that they have legal counsels and all. But do they really sit down and weigh the legal ramifications and discuss who shall be thrown under the bus, if things should flare up? I come from a country where this used to be fairly widespread (I don't know if it is anymore; I imagine it is). Owing to my hatred (and no, I'm not using the wrong word; few things give me a more unpleasant, visceral sensation) for large organization and business crap, I wasn't involved in any stuff like this, but I know people who were. Your supposition is in fact correct: yes, people actually sit and discuss which is actually more profitable and what they can do in order to make sure they don't get caught, either. It's not usually a board decision, because a large board tends to spread its efforts far wider and, as you involve more people, the danger of news spreading (even for personal image gain) increases. It's usually something driven by two or three of the more important figures, who make sure (via bullshit, oh, sorry, I mean politics) that the rest of the board follows along -- not for free of course. Things aren't ever written and are cleverly disguised under various contracts that are otherwise legal. Obviously, this implies that the legislation lays the proper ground for this. Consequently, most of these things are usually done with political support from within the legislative unit.
- Nick_C 13y ago
  Fines aren't a tax deduction.
  - Wingman4l7 13y ago
    I didn't mean "business expense write-off" in that sense, I meant "as a cost of doing business".
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    I'd like to hear more about this. Imagine that I, a sole proprietor, take in $10 million in a year, with deductible expenses of $1 million (if the numbers are rosy, well, it's my scenario ;) ). Imagine that I get hit with a fine of $8.5 million. How am I supposed to pay taxes on my $9 million of income with my $500K cash? Taxes get paid quarterly, so imagine I've already paid them when I get hit with the fine. Will the fine be discharged in my inevitable bankruptcy? Do the courts have to stand in line with my other creditors?
    - tedunangst 13y ago
      I don't think the fine would apply instantaneously. Also, the money you give back (the not punitive part) is clearly not income, so why would you pay taxes on it? More like you have to return 6 million you didn't earn. Your profits are now 3 million. You owe taxes on 3 million, and the remaining 2.5 million fine comes out of what's left.
      - thaumasiotes 13y ago
        If I owe taxes on $3 million, and I also owe a $2.5 million dollar fine, then I owe a lot more than $3 million total. The fine can't "come out of what's left"; it's bigger than the amount that's left.
- RestoGP 13y ago
  Here's something you probably will not hear: "Free Jon Corzine" Here's some info about Mr. Corzine: 0. 'Jon Corzine still doesn't know where the money is, and it seems nobody else does either. A "significant amount" of the missing $1.2 billion in MF Global customer funds may have been "vaporized," the Wall Street Journal reports, citing "a person close to the investigation" into the missing funds. The money could have gotten lost during chaotic trading leading up to the brokerage firm's bankruptcy filing.' http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/30/missing-mf-global-customer-funds_n_1241639.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/30/missing-mf-global-c... 1. 'Jon Stevens Corzine (born January 1, 1947) is an American finance executive, philanthropist and politician. A Democrat, he was a United States Senator from New Jersey from 2001 to 2006 and was the 54th Governor of New Jersey from 2006 to 2010. He also worked as CEO of Goldman Sachs[2] during the 1990s and was CEO of MF Global from 2010 to 2011. He was charged by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) in connection with MF's bankruptcy in 2011.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Corzine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Corzine 2. 'It’s official. Jon Corzine will not be cuffed over MF Global’s improper handling of customers’ funds leading up to the commodity brokerage firm’s spectacular collapse in late 2011, The Post has learned. Federal investigators have found no evidence that the disgraced Wall Street titan broke the law. “After 18 months of investigation, the criminal probe into Jon Corzine is now being dropped,” a person with knowledge of the probe told The Post. “There is no evidence of criminal wrongdoing,” this person said.' http://nypost.com/2013/07/08/corzine-off-the-crook/ http://nypost.com/2013/07/08/corzine-off-the-crook/ So, how can we transfer such judicial munificence to the "inner city"?

by janj 13y ago

Wingman4l7 13y ago

(For those interested in more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSBC#Money_laundering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSBC#Money_laundering) Never mind the fundamental fact that if your fine was less than the profit you gained from your illegal activity, you can just write it off as a business expense. Fines have to be punitive or they will have no effect; it's simple math.

wozniacki 13y ago
I am always in constant bewilderment at how galling some of these corporate crimes are. How does one even go about planning these? Do the chief executives [1] [2] sit with the board members and discuss the tradeoffs of turning a blind eye to some hanky-panky stuff going on in Mexico? [3] I know that they have legal counsels and all. But do they really sit down and weigh the legal ramifications and discuss who shall be thrown under the bus, if things should flare up? Whether its a Angelo Mozilo of Countrywide Financial [4] or a Maurice R. Greenberg[5] of AIG or even a Calisto Tanzi of Parmalat [6] [7]; do these people even have a good pulse of the prosecution climate of a given administration, the likelihood of getting caught and the possible fines and sentences before they choose to set these financially murky things in motion? Or are they more like hot-shot, fledgling politicians [8] who think they are invincible and can never possibly get caught, in a scandal? If anything, the public has come to be struck in awe of these people and their mettle, rather than find their actions, reprobatory. The slap on the wrist fines and sentences ( if any at all ) that major executives and their houses have received, only reaffirms the notion that one -above all other skills and qualifications - has to be a skilled manipulator of fact, circumstance and public opinion, to head a large and highly profitable enterprise, these days. After all the cake and watermelon, I am loath to admit that deviousness and calculated deceit has become sexy. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Geoghegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Geoghegan [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Gulliver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Gulliver [3] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-16/hsbc-aided-money-laundering-by-iran-drug-cartels-probe-shows.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-16/hsbc-aided-money-la... [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Mozilo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Mozilo [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_R._Greenberg#Legal_issues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_R._Greenberg#Legal_issu... [6]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmalat_bankruptcy_timeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmalat_bankruptcy_timeline [7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmalat#Financial_fraud_.282002.E2.80.932005.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmalat#Financial_fraud_.28200... [8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edwards#Indictment_and_trial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edwards#Indictment_and_tri... Edit: Citations
- Wingman4l7 13y ago
  > But do they really sit down and weigh the legal ramifications and discuss who shall be thrown under the bus, if things should flare up? I would think they'd avoid putting down anything on paper for fear that it would be discoverable (in a legal sense) if/when the SHTF.
  - wozniacki 13y ago
    My point precisely. It sure is a lot of stuff to keep unentangled in your head without ever so much as jotting it down in your daily planner for fear that it might someday be deemed admissible in court. I wonder what kind of apps they'd trust to transmit or store information on their iPhones and iPads. Speaking of technology that executives see fit to use, here's the billionaire owner of Dallas Cowboys, Jerry Jones, pictured using a flip phone: https://twitter.com/CorkGaines/status/386673573210750976/photo/1 https://twitter.com/CorkGaines/status/386673573210750976/pho...
    - Wingman4l7 13y ago
      Makes me think of all the popular media about the mob where a major plot point is getting hold of the "books" (in which the money from all the dirty business dealings is tallied up).
    - WalterBright 13y ago
      Eh, I use a flip phone, too. My car is a '72 Dodge. Guess I like the classics :-)
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- weland 13y ago
  > I know that they have legal counsels and all. But do they really sit down and weigh the legal ramifications and discuss who shall be thrown under the bus, if things should flare up? I come from a country where this used to be fairly widespread (I don't know if it is anymore; I imagine it is). Owing to my hatred (and no, I'm not using the wrong word; few things give me a more unpleasant, visceral sensation) for large organization and business crap, I wasn't involved in any stuff like this, but I know people who were. Your supposition is in fact correct: yes, people actually sit and discuss which is actually more profitable and what they can do in order to make sure they don't get caught, either. It's not usually a board decision, because a large board tends to spread its efforts far wider and, as you involve more people, the danger of news spreading (even for personal image gain) increases. It's usually something driven by two or three of the more important figures, who make sure (via bullshit, oh, sorry, I mean politics) that the rest of the board follows along -- not for free of course. Things aren't ever written and are cleverly disguised under various contracts that are otherwise legal. Obviously, this implies that the legislation lays the proper ground for this. Consequently, most of these things are usually done with political support from within the legislative unit.
Nick_C 13y ago
Fines aren't a tax deduction.
- Wingman4l7 13y ago
  I didn't mean "business expense write-off" in that sense, I meant "as a cost of doing business".
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  I'd like to hear more about this. Imagine that I, a sole proprietor, take in $10 million in a year, with deductible expenses of $1 million (if the numbers are rosy, well, it's my scenario ;) ). Imagine that I get hit with a fine of $8.5 million. How am I supposed to pay taxes on my $9 million of income with my $500K cash? Taxes get paid quarterly, so imagine I've already paid them when I get hit with the fine. Will the fine be discharged in my inevitable bankruptcy? Do the courts have to stand in line with my other creditors?
  - tedunangst 13y ago
    I don't think the fine would apply instantaneously. Also, the money you give back (the not punitive part) is clearly not income, so why would you pay taxes on it? More like you have to return 6 million you didn't earn. Your profits are now 3 million. You owe taxes on 3 million, and the remaining 2.5 million fine comes out of what's left.
    - thaumasiotes 13y ago
      If I owe taxes on $3 million, and I also owe a $2.5 million dollar fine, then I owe a lot more than $3 million total. The fine can't "come out of what's left"; it's bigger than the amount that's left.
RestoGP 13y ago
Here's something you probably will not hear: "Free Jon Corzine" Here's some info about Mr. Corzine: 0. 'Jon Corzine still doesn't know where the money is, and it seems nobody else does either. A "significant amount" of the missing $1.2 billion in MF Global customer funds may have been "vaporized," the Wall Street Journal reports, citing "a person close to the investigation" into the missing funds. The money could have gotten lost during chaotic trading leading up to the brokerage firm's bankruptcy filing.' http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/30/missing-mf-global-customer-funds_n_1241639.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/30/missing-mf-global-c... 1. 'Jon Stevens Corzine (born January 1, 1947) is an American finance executive, philanthropist and politician. A Democrat, he was a United States Senator from New Jersey from 2001 to 2006 and was the 54th Governor of New Jersey from 2006 to 2010. He also worked as CEO of Goldman Sachs[2] during the 1990s and was CEO of MF Global from 2010 to 2011. He was charged by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) in connection with MF's bankruptcy in 2011.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Corzine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Corzine 2. 'It’s official. Jon Corzine will not be cuffed over MF Global’s improper handling of customers’ funds leading up to the commodity brokerage firm’s spectacular collapse in late 2011, The Post has learned. Federal investigators have found no evidence that the disgraced Wall Street titan broke the law. “After 18 months of investigation, the criminal probe into Jon Corzine is now being dropped,” a person with knowledge of the probe told The Post. “There is no evidence of criminal wrongdoing,” this person said.' http://nypost.com/2013/07/08/corzine-off-the-crook/ http://nypost.com/2013/07/08/corzine-off-the-crook/ So, how can we transfer such judicial munificence to the "inner city"?