5 ms·

JavaScript, The Final Frontier

25 points by alexandros 13y ago

skrebbel 13y ago
Look, everything looks like a nail! Let's use that screwdriver over there as a hammer.
- twerquie 13y ago
  I don't think you understand how that metaphor works... are you trying to say that every problem is the same and developers choose wildly different tools for the job?
  - gagege 13y ago
    I think it's about the perspective that every problem can be solved with a hammer-like-thing, however inefficiently.
  - oso2k 13y ago
    Sounds to me like he is commenting on two things: many developers only see only type of problem; and many developers have a hard time picking the most appropriate tool any given problem. He's paraphrasing and expanding on the original metaphor by acknowledging our field's desire for standardization as an optimization strategy while introducing irony in the misuse/non-standard use of tools to complete the same function.
  - Iftheshoefits 13y ago
    I think the commenter is taking a dig at the result of Atwood's Law in application here. Maybe somebody should coin a new "Law". Something like, "The fact that something can (and apparently therefore will) be programmed in JavaScript doesn't mean that it will be (useful|performant|efficient|high-quality)." I happen to agree with him. Just because something can be written in JavaScript doesn't make it a "good idea" for certain domains.
  - gnarbarian 13y ago
    I think he's trying to say that we enjoy trying out new tools in interesting and unintended ways even when it can be pretty obvious a more boring traditional approach would be better. It's a pretty core hacker trait. "when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail" vs "Look, everything looks like a nail! Let's use that screwdriver over there as a hammer." So despite having multiple tools, everything still looks like a nail. Think of your typical boring webapp development that most of us have done a thousand times. Rather than use the same tools you always have and are familiar/bored to death with it's often quite tempting to use something else to help keep things interesting while hoping that it might actually end up being better than what you've used in the past. Chances are it's not. but that's what learning is all about.
gesman 13y ago
Devices thrive through native, strongly typed, compiled languages, because both are fast and need each other to make each other happy. Programmers thrive through interpreted languages because it is fast to learn and allows boss and his programmers to craft something quickly to show up for their effort.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  As ahoge points out, interpreted/compiled is an implementation detail. OTOH, you might have a point if you replaced the first category with "strongly, statically typed" and the latter category with "weakly and/or dynamically typed". On the third hand, maybe not -- with its type inference, Haskell (and, IME, even Scala, with its much more limited type inference) allow crafting working code with speed comparable to, e.g., Python. Perhaps its not strong/static typing that slows down the dev process so much as implementations of such systems that require lots of ritualistic incantations to the type system.
- ahoge 13y ago
  > interpreted languages Being interpreted is an implementation detail. For example, V8 (Chrome's JS engine) doesn't have an interpreter. It compiles to (quick and dirty) machine code right off the bat. Later, the "hot" parts are compiled to better more optimized machine code. There are also several C interpreters.
talles 13y ago
I guess I'll step aside the js dominance discussion for now. Just wanna say what a delightful article.
camus2 13y ago
Isnt Resin a server ? maybe you should look for another name , branding collision is never good for new products.
- darkandbrooding 13y ago
  Your memory is correct. http://www.caucho.com/resin-web-server/ http://www.caucho.com/resin-web-server/ http://www.caucho.com/resin-application-server-2/ http://www.caucho.com/resin-application-server-2/
vfclists 13y ago
When is this JavaScript idiocy going to end? Is there some kind of conspiracy on HN and reddit where every other day somebody comes along to sing JavaScript's praises? The language has been around for donkey's years and yet every other day we get an announcement about some new square plug has been made to fit into a Javascript round hole. I mean if JavaScript is so wonderful then why haven't all the important things which could and should have been accomplished with it been done by now? This madness must end. The amount of time a younger and current generation of programmers have spent futzing around JavaScript simply borders on a cruel, criminal and wastful abuse of their time and talent. So much time trying to solve programs which were fixed in other languages ages ago and inadequately so, simply because it is 1 an interpreter, 2 it is the only one running in the browser (aka THE universal platform) If Google, Microsoft et al in their desire to rent software, hang on to users data and whatnots are willing to persist with it that's fine, but why should acquiescence to their agenda lead to slavish fanboyism at the altar of Javascript? Sorry if I have derailed someone's thread or pooped someone's party but the sheer impedance mismatch of this development platform drives me nuts.
- gagege 13y ago
  Javascript is ubiquitous on the web. That is a huge advantage it has over other languages. People started using it to do cool things on the web, which is great. "Hey, Javascript is not so bad" is the correct sentiment. But, I also agree with you. Are people only using it everywhere because it's what they know, or am I missing something that proves it's actually the right tool for all these jobs? I like Javascript, but every time I see people go gaga over some choppy implementation of 1995 technology in Javascript, I have to laugh.
  - _random_ 13y ago
    JS is like a common cold - annoying, commonplace and still not cured. I mean some diseases are worth than cold, so JS is not so bad.
    - gagege 13y ago
      I have my solution to the problem: Haxe. I write my server and client in the same language as I write my games and other desktop software. Also, guess what? It's all native code. Seriously, why don't more people use Haxe? It's amazing.
agentultra 13y ago
I'm still rather amazed that there is such a term as, "hardware hacking." And that it is considered magical. I grew up with computers where programming them was what you did with them. They were hardware. You had to learn at least a little bit of programming to get them to do anything at all. Which was rather annoying and not terribly empowering for anybody but those interested in programming computers. Due to economics of scale in computing the computers I knew when I started programming have faded into the background and have been replaced by appliances that run apps. Today there are programmers who have years of experience who couldn't tell me what the size of a pointer is on their machine or how a program is executed by the operating system. Javascript is so far removed from the concerns of addressing schemes, allocations and registers that it's fun seeing people move into low-power computers from this point of view as if it's the most natural thing in the world. We live in frightfully exciting times.
_random_ 13y ago
I find it amazing that programming language regress is considered a progress.
lysa 13y ago
Small steps towards this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/

25 points by alexandros 13y ago

skrebbel 13y ago

Look, everything looks like a nail! Let's use that screwdriver over there as a hammer.

twerquie 13y ago
I don't think you understand how that metaphor works... are you trying to say that every problem is the same and developers choose wildly different tools for the job?
- gagege 13y ago
  I think it's about the perspective that every problem can be solved with a hammer-like-thing, however inefficiently.
- oso2k 13y ago
  Sounds to me like he is commenting on two things: many developers only see only type of problem; and many developers have a hard time picking the most appropriate tool any given problem. He's paraphrasing and expanding on the original metaphor by acknowledging our field's desire for standardization as an optimization strategy while introducing irony in the misuse/non-standard use of tools to complete the same function.
- Iftheshoefits 13y ago
  I think the commenter is taking a dig at the result of Atwood's Law in application here. Maybe somebody should coin a new "Law". Something like, "The fact that something can (and apparently therefore will) be programmed in JavaScript doesn't mean that it will be (useful|performant|efficient|high-quality)." I happen to agree with him. Just because something can be written in JavaScript doesn't make it a "good idea" for certain domains.
- gnarbarian 13y ago
  I think he's trying to say that we enjoy trying out new tools in interesting and unintended ways even when it can be pretty obvious a more boring traditional approach would be better. It's a pretty core hacker trait. "when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail" vs "Look, everything looks like a nail! Let's use that screwdriver over there as a hammer." So despite having multiple tools, everything still looks like a nail. Think of your typical boring webapp development that most of us have done a thousand times. Rather than use the same tools you always have and are familiar/bored to death with it's often quite tempting to use something else to help keep things interesting while hoping that it might actually end up being better than what you've used in the past. Chances are it's not. but that's what learning is all about.

gesman 13y ago

Devices thrive through native, strongly typed, compiled languages, because both are fast and need each other to make each other happy. Programmers thrive through interpreted languages because it is fast to learn and allows boss and his programmers to craft something quickly to show up for their effort.

dragonwriter 13y ago
As ahoge points out, interpreted/compiled is an implementation detail. OTOH, you might have a point if you replaced the first category with "strongly, statically typed" and the latter category with "weakly and/or dynamically typed". On the third hand, maybe not -- with its type inference, Haskell (and, IME, even Scala, with its much more limited type inference) allow crafting working code with speed comparable to, e.g., Python. Perhaps its not strong/static typing that slows down the dev process so much as implementations of such systems that require lots of ritualistic incantations to the type system.
ahoge 13y ago
> interpreted languages Being interpreted is an implementation detail. For example, V8 (Chrome's JS engine) doesn't have an interpreter. It compiles to (quick and dirty) machine code right off the bat. Later, the "hot" parts are compiled to better more optimized machine code. There are also several C interpreters.

talles 13y ago

I guess I'll step aside the js dominance discussion for now. Just wanna say what a delightful article.

camus2 13y ago

Isnt Resin a server ? maybe you should look for another name , branding collision is never good for new products.

darkandbrooding 13y ago
Your memory is correct. http://www.caucho.com/resin-web-server/ http://www.caucho.com/resin-web-server/ http://www.caucho.com/resin-application-server-2/ http://www.caucho.com/resin-application-server-2/

vfclists 13y ago

When is this JavaScript idiocy going to end? Is there some kind of conspiracy on HN and reddit where every other day somebody comes along to sing JavaScript's praises? The language has been around for donkey's years and yet every other day we get an announcement about some new square plug has been made to fit into a Javascript round hole. I mean if JavaScript is so wonderful then why haven't all the important things which could and should have been accomplished with it been done by now? This madness must end. The amount of time a younger and current generation of programmers have spent futzing around JavaScript simply borders on a cruel, criminal and wastful abuse of their time and talent. So much time trying to solve programs which were fixed in other languages ages ago and inadequately so, simply because it is 1 an interpreter, 2 it is the only one running in the browser (aka THE universal platform) If Google, Microsoft et al in their desire to rent software, hang on to users data and whatnots are willing to persist with it that's fine, but why should acquiescence to their agenda lead to slavish fanboyism at the altar of Javascript? Sorry if I have derailed someone's thread or pooped someone's party but the sheer impedance mismatch of this development platform drives me nuts.

gagege 13y ago
Javascript is ubiquitous on the web. That is a huge advantage it has over other languages. People started using it to do cool things on the web, which is great. "Hey, Javascript is not so bad" is the correct sentiment. But, I also agree with you. Are people only using it everywhere because it's what they know, or am I missing something that proves it's actually the right tool for all these jobs? I like Javascript, but every time I see people go gaga over some choppy implementation of 1995 technology in Javascript, I have to laugh.
- _random_ 13y ago
  JS is like a common cold - annoying, commonplace and still not cured. I mean some diseases are worth than cold, so JS is not so bad.
  - gagege 13y ago
    I have my solution to the problem: Haxe. I write my server and client in the same language as I write my games and other desktop software. Also, guess what? It's all native code. Seriously, why don't more people use Haxe? It's amazing.

agentultra 13y ago

I'm still rather amazed that there is such a term as, "hardware hacking." And that it is considered magical. I grew up with computers where programming them was what you did with them. They were hardware. You had to learn at least a little bit of programming to get them to do anything at all. Which was rather annoying and not terribly empowering for anybody but those interested in programming computers. Due to economics of scale in computing the computers I knew when I started programming have faded into the background and have been replaced by appliances that run apps. Today there are programmers who have years of experience who couldn't tell me what the size of a pointer is on their machine or how a program is executed by the operating system. Javascript is so far removed from the concerns of addressing schemes, allocations and registers that it's fun seeing people move into low-power computers from this point of view as if it's the most natural thing in the world. We live in frightfully exciting times.

_random_ 13y ago

I find it amazing that programming language regress is considered a progress.

lysa 13y ago

Small steps towards this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/