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I think electric cars are great technology as well, but some of us are tired of reading about how a what is essentially a heavily-subsidized, California rich-pe

I think electric cars are great technology as well, but some of us are tired of reading about how a what is essentially a heavily-subsidized, California rich-person's "toy" is the greatest thing to happen to the automotive industry ever. To me it isn't so much about wanting to see them fail, it's bringing expectations in line. I don't see many articles around here about the work the other car companies are doing in the space.

NickM 13y ago
I think your complaints are pretty well addressed in first few paragraphs of Elon's blog post. The goal of the company from the outset has always been to create an affordable mass-market car, but until they have economies of scale and such, the vehicles are going to be expensive. People aren't excited because Tesla is making ~20k luxury cars a year, they're excited because the Model S is just the beginning. And if you're upset because the cars are government subsidized, I'd like to point out that the conventional auto industries and oil industries have received more than their fair share of subsidies as well over the years.
- onebaddude 13y ago
  >I think your complaints are pretty well addressed in first few paragraphs of Elon's blog post. Not really. I take everything that Musk says with a grain of salt. Tesla's goal of making a mass-market car is all well and good, but they are a long way from that. They can't seem to make money on high-margin luxury vehicles, so obtaining the scale to build a lower-margin vehicle isn't exactly a cake-walk. I'd like to see them do it, but how does it happen, financially? I'm not sure. Again, my point is that this is always framed as Tesla v. the Auto Industry, when in fact the auto industry is also trying to accomplish the same things that Tesla is. And, at least in my opinion, they have a better chance of actually doing it; they have the scale and profits. Yet places like HN (see some other comments) can't imagine these large companies pulling it off. It's absurd. >I'd like to point out that the conventional auto industries and oil industries have received more than their fair share of subsidies as well over the years. I don't necessarily agree with those subsidies either. But if you think those subsidies and bailouts are equivalent to giving extremely wealthy people a discount on a luxury vehicle, then I guess we have different ideas about what's "fair".
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    >>They can't seem to make money on high-margin luxury vehicles You, sir, are grossly misinformed.
  - NickM 13y ago
    They can't seem to make money on high-margin luxury vehicles This is incorrect. They've been profitable since Q1 of this year and their profit margins are continuing to rise, even discounting the ZEV regulatory credits (which have been steadily decreasing for a number of quarters now). in fact the auto industry is also trying to accomplish the same things that Tesla is This is debatable. Mainstream auto manufacturers have released plenty of electric cars, but they're all "compromise cars" that seem to shy away from cannibalizing their mainstream car sales. None of them come close to having the range, comfort, or storage space of the Model S. This is a huge deal. Some people might be happy buying a Nissan Leaf as a secondary commuter car, and they might be willing to put up with the ugly styling, small size, low range, and poor performance. But, unless someone is making a compelling electric car that's actually better than a gasoline car, EVs aren't really going to take off. Right now, Tesla is the only manufacturer that seems to be even trying to pursue this goal, and that's what makes them so unique, interesting, and important. But if you think those subsidies and bailouts are equivalent to giving extremely wealthy people a discount on a luxury vehicle... The existing tax credits apply equally to all electric cars, not just luxury vehicles. You get $7,500 back from the federal government regardless of whether you buy a Tesla Model S for 70k or a GM Spark EV for 27k. As a percentage of purchase price, cheaper cars are actually being subsidized more than expensive luxury cars.
    - ams6110 13y ago
      Any electric car is a compromise. It's a compromise on range, on refuling time, on flexibility. That's not to say they don't have certain advantages too. I don't understand your "cannibalizing their mainstream car" argument. Either way they are selling a car.. what's being cannibalized?
      - NickM 13y ago

NickM 13y ago

I think your complaints are pretty well addressed in first few paragraphs of Elon's blog post. The goal of the company from the outset has always been to create an affordable mass-market car, but until they have economies of scale and such, the vehicles are going to be expensive. People aren't excited because Tesla is making ~20k luxury cars a year, they're excited because the Model S is just the beginning. And if you're upset because the cars are government subsidized, I'd like to point out that the conventional auto industries and oil industries have received more than their fair share of subsidies as well over the years.

onebaddude 13y ago
>I think your complaints are pretty well addressed in first few paragraphs of Elon's blog post. Not really. I take everything that Musk says with a grain of salt. Tesla's goal of making a mass-market car is all well and good, but they are a long way from that. They can't seem to make money on high-margin luxury vehicles, so obtaining the scale to build a lower-margin vehicle isn't exactly a cake-walk. I'd like to see them do it, but how does it happen, financially? I'm not sure. Again, my point is that this is always framed as Tesla v. the Auto Industry, when in fact the auto industry is also trying to accomplish the same things that Tesla is. And, at least in my opinion, they have a better chance of actually doing it; they have the scale and profits. Yet places like HN (see some other comments) can't imagine these large companies pulling it off. It's absurd. >I'd like to point out that the conventional auto industries and oil industries have received more than their fair share of subsidies as well over the years. I don't necessarily agree with those subsidies either. But if you think those subsidies and bailouts are equivalent to giving extremely wealthy people a discount on a luxury vehicle, then I guess we have different ideas about what's "fair".
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  >>They can't seem to make money on high-margin luxury vehicles You, sir, are grossly misinformed.
- NickM 13y ago
  They can't seem to make money on high-margin luxury vehicles This is incorrect. They've been profitable since Q1 of this year and their profit margins are continuing to rise, even discounting the ZEV regulatory credits (which have been steadily decreasing for a number of quarters now). in fact the auto industry is also trying to accomplish the same things that Tesla is This is debatable. Mainstream auto manufacturers have released plenty of electric cars, but they're all "compromise cars" that seem to shy away from cannibalizing their mainstream car sales. None of them come close to having the range, comfort, or storage space of the Model S. This is a huge deal. Some people might be happy buying a Nissan Leaf as a secondary commuter car, and they might be willing to put up with the ugly styling, small size, low range, and poor performance. But, unless someone is making a compelling electric car that's actually better than a gasoline car, EVs aren't really going to take off. Right now, Tesla is the only manufacturer that seems to be even trying to pursue this goal, and that's what makes them so unique, interesting, and important. But if you think those subsidies and bailouts are equivalent to giving extremely wealthy people a discount on a luxury vehicle... The existing tax credits apply equally to all electric cars, not just luxury vehicles. You get $7,500 back from the federal government regardless of whether you buy a Tesla Model S for 70k or a GM Spark EV for 27k. As a percentage of purchase price, cheaper cars are actually being subsidized more than expensive luxury cars.
  - ams6110 13y ago
    Any electric car is a compromise. It's a compromise on range, on refuling time, on flexibility. That's not to say they don't have certain advantages too. I don't understand your "cannibalizing their mainstream car" argument. Either way they are selling a car.. what's being cannibalized?
    - NickM 13y ago