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Thanks for the overview, but... I am a hard line atheist anti-idealist that don't make that much difference between islamists, socialists and astrology readers

by berntb 13y ago

Thanks for the overview, but... I am a hard line atheist anti-idealist that don't make that much difference between islamists, socialists and astrology readers. Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions -- or they are just propagandists (since they know they are correct, the target is "winning" as in convincing, not learning.) Politically, I think the US left is as crazy as the US Fox right. The point is, there are subjects where I'm less of a laid back "live and let live"-guy -- but it is hard to be more unlikely as a dangerous criminal or terrorist than me. Still, I would be nervous entering the US borders by now. From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic. It is hard to scale their solutions to US? Edit: ma2rten, I answered that first half to swombat 40+ minutes before you wrote. See "There is a serious position to have"

swombat 13y ago
> I am a hard line atheist [...]. Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions -- or they are just propagandists (since they know they are correct, the target is "winning", not learning.) Right. No contradiction there.
- berntb 13y ago
  Hey, you almost got the self irony... here is half a cookie. :-) More seriously: There is a serious position to have -- identify with the process of getting your opinions _less_ wrong, not with a particular set of opinions. In fact, there is no contradiction. Anyway, this is not the subject of the discussion.
  - rfnslyr 13y ago
    What are you going on about mate?
    - berntb 13y ago
      I answered a comment which I assumed was ironic. I'd appreciate if the down voters or someone else could explain, if I misunderstood? Edit: Without your comment, I would have assumed it was for my stupid joke. Ah, never mind.
eshvk 13y ago
> From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic. It is hard to scale their solutions to US? The Israelis are clear that what they do is racial profiling. Kind of hard to pay lip service to equality and all that bull shit and still just harass only brown people, isn't it?
- cema 13y ago
  Many Israelies are brown too. They do profile, but not quite this way.
  - eshvk 13y ago
    You are being pedantic here. Yes, I am aware of the fact that Jewish people vary and have a wide spectrum of physical appearances. Going by their definition that they are a race, the fact that people who either by virtue of having the wrong name, or wrong religion or potential links to the Arab world are flagged off and scrutinized more carefully is profiling.
    - cema 13y ago
      You have seemingly replaced "Israelis" with "Jewish people" whereas about 20% of Israelis are not Jewish. I think if we discuss profiling it is important to see what kind of profiling, specifically, is applied, its reasons and consequences.
      - eshvk 13y ago
        And you think those non jewish Israelis (mostly Arab) are treated as anything but second class citizens. Sorry, I am not the greatest critic of Israel and probably at some level think that they are pretty damn effective at what they do. However, go open up any report on how those people are discriminated against on a day to day basis.
        cema 13y ago
        Yes, they are (albeit less than many people think, and much less than in the past, but still there is a long road ahead for achieving equal treatment). This, however, is tangential. The point of discussion is profiling, which may or may not be discriminatory.
chimeracoder 13y ago
> From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic. It's not surprising that, from what you've read, this system looks good on paper. But then again, so does stop-and-frisk in New York City, if you're white and live in the West Village or Upper East Side[0]. Israeli screening is good if you're a white, non-Arab person. Not always so great otherwise: http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/arabs-say-they-endure-degrading-airport-security-checks http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/arabs-say-they-endure-d... . (This is in the case of airport security, but the same principle applies for border checks) Unlike the US, Israel openly profiles based on race. Aside from the fact that this is illegal in the US[0], this has a serious practical problem: confirmation bias. Because only a subset of people feel the cost of the profiling, the rest remain blissfully unaware of the problem. From their perspective, the system works fine - "I never have any trouble going through security!". As for 'scaling' this, keep in mind that LAX alone services more than three times the number of passengers as Ben Gurion in Tel Aviv does. [0] http://www.nyclu.org/stopandfrisk http://www.nyclu.org/stopandfrisk . [1] though that doesn't prevent it from being practiced in effect! http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/11/15/aclu-calls-for-inquiry-into-racial-profiling-investigation-logan/QRCgxIoHfHwculklDWD8FL/story.html http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/11/15/aclu-calls-fo...
ma2rten 13y ago
> Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions Yes, they do. And so does everyone else. > From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic. Or any country in world for that matter.

by berntb 13y ago

swombat 13y ago

> I am a hard line atheist [...]. Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions -- or they are just propagandists (since they know they are correct, the target is "winning", not learning.) Right. No contradiction there.

berntb 13y ago
Hey, you almost got the self irony... here is half a cookie. :-) More seriously: There is a serious position to have -- identify with the process of getting your opinions _less_ wrong, not with a particular set of opinions. In fact, there is no contradiction. Anyway, this is not the subject of the discussion.
- rfnslyr 13y ago
  What are you going on about mate?
  - berntb 13y ago
    I answered a comment which I assumed was ironic. I'd appreciate if the down voters or someone else could explain, if I misunderstood? Edit: Without your comment, I would have assumed it was for my stupid joke. Ah, never mind.

eshvk 13y ago

> From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic. It is hard to scale their solutions to US? The Israelis are clear that what they do is racial profiling. Kind of hard to pay lip service to equality and all that bull shit and still just harass only brown people, isn't it?

cema 13y ago
Many Israelies are brown too. They do profile, but not quite this way.
- eshvk 13y ago
  You are being pedantic here. Yes, I am aware of the fact that Jewish people vary and have a wide spectrum of physical appearances. Going by their definition that they are a race, the fact that people who either by virtue of having the wrong name, or wrong religion or potential links to the Arab world are flagged off and scrutinized more carefully is profiling.
  - cema 13y ago
    You have seemingly replaced "Israelis" with "Jewish people" whereas about 20% of Israelis are not Jewish. I think if we discuss profiling it is important to see what kind of profiling, specifically, is applied, its reasons and consequences.
    - eshvk 13y ago
      And you think those non jewish Israelis (mostly Arab) are treated as anything but second class citizens. Sorry, I am not the greatest critic of Israel and probably at some level think that they are pretty damn effective at what they do. However, go open up any report on how those people are discriminated against on a day to day basis.
      - cema 13y ago
        Yes, they are (albeit less than many people think, and much less than in the past, but still there is a long road ahead for achieving equal treatment). This, however, is tangential. The point of discussion is profiling, which may or may not be discriminatory.

chimeracoder 13y ago

> From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic. It's not surprising that, from what you've read, this system looks good on paper. But then again, so does stop-and-frisk in New York City, if you're white and live in the West Village or Upper East Side[0]. Israeli screening is good if you're a white, non-Arab person. Not always so great otherwise: http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/arabs-say-they-endure-degrading-airport-security-checks http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/arabs-say-they-endure-d... . (This is in the case of airport security, but the same principle applies for border checks) Unlike the US, Israel openly profiles based on race. Aside from the fact that this is illegal in the US[0], this has a serious practical problem: confirmation bias. Because only a subset of people feel the cost of the profiling, the rest remain blissfully unaware of the problem. From their perspective, the system works fine - "I never have any trouble going through security!". As for 'scaling' this, keep in mind that LAX alone services more than three times the number of passengers as Ben Gurion in Tel Aviv does. [0] http://www.nyclu.org/stopandfrisk http://www.nyclu.org/stopandfrisk . [1] though that doesn't prevent it from being practiced in effect! http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/11/15/aclu-calls-for-inquiry-into-racial-profiling-investigation-logan/QRCgxIoHfHwculklDWD8FL/story.html http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/11/15/aclu-calls-fo...

ma2rten 13y ago

> Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions Yes, they do. And so does everyone else. > From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic. Or any country in world for that matter.