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U.S. Immigration agents are trained to look for certain traits in visitors: nervousness, unusual or inconsistent answers to questions, history of visiting certa

U.S. Immigration agents are trained to look for certain traits in visitors: nervousness, unusual or inconsistent answers to questions, history of visiting certain countries. Any of these characteristics trigger an automatic escalation in the interrogation process. This individual, albeit sounding perfectly innocent, unfortunately triggered several hot buttons and the hapless agents were too unimaginative, uninformed, and inflexible to give him benefit of the doubt and let him pass. 99.9% of visitors do pass, because they are consistent with certain profiles--business visitor, tourist visitor, never-been-anywhere-bad visitor. Even for them, it's a rather unpleasant and rude experience that leaves a bad taste. There's no question that our border control and immigration system needs an overhaul. The stupidity and counter productivity of the agents who scrutinize every incoming person (except for a few thousand Mexicans every day, but that's another topic :) inspires little confidence that they would actually recognize a terrorist, who would undoubtedly be carrying a false or sanitized passport to avoid just such questions. I'm sorry that happened to the submitter, and I hope he'll give us another try some day. If his story gets out to the right person or persons, it might even make a difference. I'm not convinced that Border control people will ever hear about it if posted here, but he can contact them directly: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/175/~/complaint-of-rude-and-unprofessional-treatment https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/175/~/complaint... By the way, this kind of profiling or over-profiling is not confined to U.S. Border Control agents. I have seen identical behavior by Canadian agents, too. All I had to do was mention I was going to take a class, and the guy made us go into an interrogation room where he asked repeated, annoying questions to try to entrap me into admitting I was in Canada to work or some such thing. I was born in Canada as it clearly states on my US passport, and he asked me where I was born, then looked at my companion with a sneer on his face as though to show his disbelief. It was entirely unpleasant, but in the end we passed. I learned not to say I was there to take a class. Just visiting. Hope to spend lots of money. Ok, have a nice day!

DanBC 13y ago
> I learned not to say I was there to take a class. Just visiting. Hope to spend lots of money. Ok, have a nice day! Isn't lying to those people a really bad idea?
- blisterpeanuts 13y ago
  Lying by omission.
- moocowduckquack 13y ago
  No, they can't spot lies, they can only spot things they are not expecting. Tell them a short boring story if the truth is unusual.
  - twoodfin 13y ago
    Then they'll ask you to expand on arbitrary details of your short boring story, and unless you're a very good liar you'll be in trouble. People are always reporting odd conversations with border agents. When those conversations result in further scrutiny or being denied admittance, they can appear sinister or arbitrary in retrospect. But it's a basic behavioral profiling technique: Take a random walk down a conversation tree and look for the inconsistencies and delays that occur when the subject has to start making things up.
    - moocowduckquack 13y ago
      That's the point to fall asleep.
    - spin 13y ago
      Don't ever lie. Lying to a cop is a crime. (and/or it could get you into worse trouble later on...) But, like the parent-poster said: tell a simple, boring story. (You think that you're out to have fun on this exciting new adventure in life... your vacation!, your new business trip!, whatever. But they're looking for anything strange. They are bored, boring, unimaginative government bureaucrats. Give them the simple, bored, boring, short (but honest) summary of "the purpose of your visit". TFA said that getting searched is "just like in the movies!"... don't do that. Just... don't. Do not share any enthusiasm about anything with CBP.)
      - aliston 13y ago
berntb 13y ago
Thanks for the overview, but... I am a hard line atheist anti-idealist that don't make that much difference between islamists, socialists and astrology readers. Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions -- or they are just propagandists (since they know they are correct, the target is "winning" as in convincing, not learning.) Politically, I think the US left is as crazy as the US Fox right. The point is, there are subjects where I'm less of a laid back "live and let live"-guy -- but it is hard to be more unlikely as a dangerous criminal or terrorist than me. Still, I would be nervous entering the US borders by now. From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic. It is hard to scale their solutions to US? Edit: ma2rten, I answered that first half to swombat 40+ minutes before you wrote. See "There is a serious position to have"
- swombat 13y ago
  > I am a hard line atheist [...]. Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions -- or they are just propagandists (since they know they are correct, the target is "winning", not learning.) Right. No contradiction there.
  - berntb 13y ago
    Hey, you almost got the self irony... here is half a cookie. :-) More seriously: There is a serious position to have -- identify with the process of getting your opinions _less_ wrong, not with a particular set of opinions. In fact, there is no contradiction. Anyway, this is not the subject of the discussion.
    - rfnslyr 13y ago
      What are you going on about mate?
      - berntb 13y ago
        I answered a comment which I assumed was ironic. I'd appreciate if the down voters or someone else could explain, if I misunderstood? Edit: Without your comment, I would have assumed it was for my stupid joke. Ah, never mind.
thaumasiotes 13y ago
I've done a fair amount of back-and-forth between the US and China. On my most recent entry (to the US), the phase 1 guy flagged me to have my carryon manually inspected because I took the trouble to answer his questions honestly (bizarrely, the search did not involve a search of my person, or my checked luggage, so I can't imagine what it was supposed to accomplish). That forced my mother to wait an extra hour to pick me up, so roughly midnight instead of 11:00. Lesson learned, I guess. Never be honest with customs. For reference - white US-born citizen (well, from a california perspective); never been in trouble.
- girvo 13y ago
  I've been to over 40 countries so far in my life. Be "honest", with Customs: tell them what they want to hear. Being logical, assuming they understand travel at all, is a recipe for disaster. I learnt that the hard way coming in to Heathrow!
  - ma2rten 13y ago
    Could you elaborate? What e.g. would be a common mistake? I have traveled a little bit in past (asia, europe, north america), but never had any trouble with customs / immigration.
    - mahyarm 13y ago
      Minimum information necessary, fit the stereotypical profile that you have the visa status for. For example: On vacation, on a long vacation, and I fund it with my job savings. Business visitor who already has a business visa, student who already has a student visa, etc.
- bobdvb 13y ago
  I read that as "to have my canyon manually inspected", which would have been a very different experience.
- ma2rten 13y ago
  To me as an European it already crazy enough, that the US even interviews it's own citizens. In the EU if you are an EU citizen you just get waived though at immigration. (At might still get checked later at customs but that is a 1 in 100 chance).
fn 13y ago
> I was born in Canada as it clearly states on my US passport Just wondering why you didn't enter Canada with your Canadian passport then?
- blisterpeanuts 13y ago
  I moved to the States when I was 5 and I'm a naturalized U.S. citizen. I have no Canadian passport.
- leoedin 13y ago
  A Canadian passport (until very recently) lasts 5 years and costs $120. (a 10 year one is available for $160). Getting a Canadian passport outside of Canada is a nightmare (unless you happen to have a Canadian embassy nearby) and costs even more - $260 for a 10 year passport. Unless you really need 2 passports, there's not much reason to get one.
  - raverbashing 13y ago
    Hummm I'm not sure, but if you're a citizen of a country, you should enter with the documentation of that country, and entering with another passport is usually a BIG NO-NO Yeah, lasts for a limited time and it costs money, so does the passport of most countries. But it gets you a hassle free entry to YOUR country.
    - leoedin 13y ago
      I've traveled into Canada using both my Canadian and UK passports with no issue. Many, many dual citizens choose not to have a passport for both countries because getting one is often hard work. What basis do you say that it's "a BIG NO-NO" to travel into a country you're a citizen of using another country's passport?
      - raverbashing 13y ago
        The main issue is that, when entering, you are subject to visitor's rules, unless you can prove you're a citizen. "When entering Australia, all Australians, including those who hold dual nationality, must be able to prove that they are an Australian citizen. An Australian passport is conclusive evidence of a person's identity and citizenship and provides the holder with right of entry to Australia." http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/tips/dual-nationals.html http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/tips/dual-nationals.html "When leaving or returning to the United States always present yourself as a US citizen (show your US passport and declare yourself to be a US citizen). " http://www.newcitizen.us/dual.html http://www.newcitizen.us/dual.html "You can travel on any valid passport, however to re-enter NZ as a citizen of NZ, you must either show a valid NZ passport at the border" http://www.dol.govt.nz/immigration/knowledgebase/item/1171 http://www.dol.govt.nz/immigration/knowledgebase/item/1171
a3n 13y ago
> I'm sorry that happened to the submitter, and I hope he'll give us another try some day. I hope he doesn't. People need to stop coming here, stop doing business here, otherwise there will be no perceived need to change. The Constitution and just plain decency have not proven enough to stop this shit. Treat us like the backwater shithole that we, by our actions, are aspiring to be. Then maybe we'll change. Otherwise you may as well welcome your new overlords.
- aeturnum 13y ago
  Countries that are cut off from the world (even with onerous trade sanctions) do not have a good record of changing their ways. Stories like this push for reform - which is both how we got our awful border controls and how we'll get rid of them. If nothing else it means that people self-select out of a system that doesn't work for them, meaning the system will never work for them. Not a good way to run things.
tootie 13y ago
Consider the incentives. What's the penalty for stamping the passport of a would-be terrorist? Fired, shamed, guilty conscience for life. What's the penalty for deporting a fun-loving Canadian? Angry blog post. Easy call for them.
shittyanalogy 13y ago
You said "identical behavior by Canadian agents" and then you said they let you pass. That is obviously not identical and is in fact contrary to a major point of OP's story. Just asking you to consider your adjectives more thoroughly before writing them.
goatforce5 13y ago
> All I had to do was mention I was going to take a class, and the guy made us go into an interrogation room where he asked repeated, annoying questions When I got my Canadian work visa the one point that the immigration agent specifically highlighted on the visa paperwork was that I wasn't permitted to attend university while I was here. Damn foreigners coming here to get subsidized education? Not sure why it was such a big deal for them.
declan 13y ago
I think this is right. There's a (let's say) 0.01% chance of false positives and being detained and hassled by FedGov border cops, and this guy was in that category. It's not just American border cops. Like the parent poster, I had bad experience entering Canada. I truthfully told the border agents I was a journalist arriving to speak at an Internet law conference at the University of Ottawa's law school, but I didn't ask the conference organizers for a written invitation and therefore couldn't produce one. The Canadian border guards took me to a side room and interrogated me what seemed like an hour. It was an unpleasant experience, especially given the uncertainty about whether I'd return home or be able to enter the country or be banned from entry for a period of time. My now-spouse was living in Canada at the time, so the last option would be the worst. They did make a pretense of looking on the school's web site for the conference, but (from what I could glimpse) were looking at the French version, not the English version where the conference was actually listed. Or maybe they found it and were intentionally playing dumb. Eventually I was admitted. Ironically, the conference was sponsored by the Canadian government!
Nelson69 13y ago
Was he rejected because of nervousness (his claim or maybe suggested by his article) or was he rejected for making some smart ass answers to their questions? So when they reject him, there is really only a couple of acceptable explanations that they can give, regardless of the truth, they aren't going to say "we just don't like your attitude" they're going to say "it looks like you run with some countries that we don't like." Maybe I've been re-educated or programmed by Our System, but I simply cannot fathom uttering 'al qaeda' at a border crossing just like 99+% of us wouldn't consider talking about 'bombs' or 'explosives' while in the TSA lines at the airport. Think of it as a pass/fail IQ test and from the sound of it, he failed. Probably doesn't make nearly as interesting an article to read though.
jotm 13y ago
Well, most people would be nervous and give inconsistent answers under pressure, EXCEPT trained spies and high ranking terrorists, so yeah, that's stupid as duck.

DanBC 13y ago

> I learned not to say I was there to take a class. Just visiting. Hope to spend lots of money. Ok, have a nice day! Isn't lying to those people a really bad idea?

blisterpeanuts 13y ago
Lying by omission.
moocowduckquack 13y ago
No, they can't spot lies, they can only spot things they are not expecting. Tell them a short boring story if the truth is unusual.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  Then they'll ask you to expand on arbitrary details of your short boring story, and unless you're a very good liar you'll be in trouble. People are always reporting odd conversations with border agents. When those conversations result in further scrutiny or being denied admittance, they can appear sinister or arbitrary in retrospect. But it's a basic behavioral profiling technique: Take a random walk down a conversation tree and look for the inconsistencies and delays that occur when the subject has to start making things up.
  - moocowduckquack 13y ago
    That's the point to fall asleep.
  - spin 13y ago
    Don't ever lie. Lying to a cop is a crime. (and/or it could get you into worse trouble later on...) But, like the parent-poster said: tell a simple, boring story. (You think that you're out to have fun on this exciting new adventure in life... your vacation!, your new business trip!, whatever. But they're looking for anything strange. They are bored, boring, unimaginative government bureaucrats. Give them the simple, bored, boring, short (but honest) summary of "the purpose of your visit". TFA said that getting searched is "just like in the movies!"... don't do that. Just... don't. Do not share any enthusiasm about anything with CBP.)
    - aliston 13y ago

berntb 13y ago

Thanks for the overview, but... I am a hard line atheist anti-idealist that don't make that much difference between islamists, socialists and astrology readers. Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions -- or they are just propagandists (since they know they are correct, the target is "winning" as in convincing, not learning.) Politically, I think the US left is as crazy as the US Fox right. The point is, there are subjects where I'm less of a laid back "live and let live"-guy -- but it is hard to be more unlikely as a dangerous criminal or terrorist than me. Still, I would be nervous entering the US borders by now. From what I've read, the Israelis make border checks less problematic. It is hard to scale their solutions to US? Edit: ma2rten, I answered that first half to swombat 40+ minutes before you wrote. See "There is a serious position to have"

swombat 13y ago
> I am a hard line atheist [...]. Idealists lie to themselves and others, because they mix up their self image with their opinions -- or they are just propagandists (since they know they are correct, the target is "winning", not learning.) Right. No contradiction there.
- berntb 13y ago
  Hey, you almost got the self irony... here is half a cookie. :-) More seriously: There is a serious position to have -- identify with the process of getting your opinions _less_ wrong, not with a particular set of opinions. In fact, there is no contradiction. Anyway, this is not the subject of the discussion.
  - rfnslyr 13y ago
    What are you going on about mate?
    - berntb 13y ago
      I answered a comment which I assumed was ironic. I'd appreciate if the down voters or someone else could explain, if I misunderstood? Edit: Without your comment, I would have assumed it was for my stupid joke. Ah, never mind.

thaumasiotes 13y ago

I've done a fair amount of back-and-forth between the US and China. On my most recent entry (to the US), the phase 1 guy flagged me to have my carryon manually inspected because I took the trouble to answer his questions honestly (bizarrely, the search did not involve a search of my person, or my checked luggage, so I can't imagine what it was supposed to accomplish). That forced my mother to wait an extra hour to pick me up, so roughly midnight instead of 11:00. Lesson learned, I guess. Never be honest with customs. For reference - white US-born citizen (well, from a california perspective); never been in trouble.

girvo 13y ago
I've been to over 40 countries so far in my life. Be "honest", with Customs: tell them what they want to hear. Being logical, assuming they understand travel at all, is a recipe for disaster. I learnt that the hard way coming in to Heathrow!
- ma2rten 13y ago
  Could you elaborate? What e.g. would be a common mistake? I have traveled a little bit in past (asia, europe, north america), but never had any trouble with customs / immigration.
  - mahyarm 13y ago
    Minimum information necessary, fit the stereotypical profile that you have the visa status for. For example: On vacation, on a long vacation, and I fund it with my job savings. Business visitor who already has a business visa, student who already has a student visa, etc.
bobdvb 13y ago
I read that as "to have my canyon manually inspected", which would have been a very different experience.
ma2rten 13y ago
To me as an European it already crazy enough, that the US even interviews it's own citizens. In the EU if you are an EU citizen you just get waived though at immigration. (At might still get checked later at customs but that is a 1 in 100 chance).

fn 13y ago

> I was born in Canada as it clearly states on my US passport Just wondering why you didn't enter Canada with your Canadian passport then?

blisterpeanuts 13y ago
I moved to the States when I was 5 and I'm a naturalized U.S. citizen. I have no Canadian passport.
leoedin 13y ago
A Canadian passport (until very recently) lasts 5 years and costs $120. (a 10 year one is available for $160). Getting a Canadian passport outside of Canada is a nightmare (unless you happen to have a Canadian embassy nearby) and costs even more - $260 for a 10 year passport. Unless you really need 2 passports, there's not much reason to get one.
- raverbashing 13y ago
  Hummm I'm not sure, but if you're a citizen of a country, you should enter with the documentation of that country, and entering with another passport is usually a BIG NO-NO Yeah, lasts for a limited time and it costs money, so does the passport of most countries. But it gets you a hassle free entry to YOUR country.
  - leoedin 13y ago
    I've traveled into Canada using both my Canadian and UK passports with no issue. Many, many dual citizens choose not to have a passport for both countries because getting one is often hard work. What basis do you say that it's "a BIG NO-NO" to travel into a country you're a citizen of using another country's passport?
    - raverbashing 13y ago
      The main issue is that, when entering, you are subject to visitor's rules, unless you can prove you're a citizen. "When entering Australia, all Australians, including those who hold dual nationality, must be able to prove that they are an Australian citizen. An Australian passport is conclusive evidence of a person's identity and citizenship and provides the holder with right of entry to Australia." http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/tips/dual-nationals.html http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/tips/dual-nationals.html "When leaving or returning to the United States always present yourself as a US citizen (show your US passport and declare yourself to be a US citizen). " http://www.newcitizen.us/dual.html http://www.newcitizen.us/dual.html "You can travel on any valid passport, however to re-enter NZ as a citizen of NZ, you must either show a valid NZ passport at the border" http://www.dol.govt.nz/immigration/knowledgebase/item/1171 http://www.dol.govt.nz/immigration/knowledgebase/item/1171

a3n 13y ago

> I'm sorry that happened to the submitter, and I hope he'll give us another try some day. I hope he doesn't. People need to stop coming here, stop doing business here, otherwise there will be no perceived need to change. The Constitution and just plain decency have not proven enough to stop this shit. Treat us like the backwater shithole that we, by our actions, are aspiring to be. Then maybe we'll change. Otherwise you may as well welcome your new overlords.

aeturnum 13y ago
Countries that are cut off from the world (even with onerous trade sanctions) do not have a good record of changing their ways. Stories like this push for reform - which is both how we got our awful border controls and how we'll get rid of them. If nothing else it means that people self-select out of a system that doesn't work for them, meaning the system will never work for them. Not a good way to run things.

tootie 13y ago

Consider the incentives. What's the penalty for stamping the passport of a would-be terrorist? Fired, shamed, guilty conscience for life. What's the penalty for deporting a fun-loving Canadian? Angry blog post. Easy call for them.

shittyanalogy 13y ago

You said "identical behavior by Canadian agents" and then you said they let you pass. That is obviously not identical and is in fact contrary to a major point of OP's story. Just asking you to consider your adjectives more thoroughly before writing them.

goatforce5 13y ago

> All I had to do was mention I was going to take a class, and the guy made us go into an interrogation room where he asked repeated, annoying questions When I got my Canadian work visa the one point that the immigration agent specifically highlighted on the visa paperwork was that I wasn't permitted to attend university while I was here. Damn foreigners coming here to get subsidized education? Not sure why it was such a big deal for them.

declan 13y ago

I think this is right. There's a (let's say) 0.01% chance of false positives and being detained and hassled by FedGov border cops, and this guy was in that category. It's not just American border cops. Like the parent poster, I had bad experience entering Canada. I truthfully told the border agents I was a journalist arriving to speak at an Internet law conference at the University of Ottawa's law school, but I didn't ask the conference organizers for a written invitation and therefore couldn't produce one. The Canadian border guards took me to a side room and interrogated me what seemed like an hour. It was an unpleasant experience, especially given the uncertainty about whether I'd return home or be able to enter the country or be banned from entry for a period of time. My now-spouse was living in Canada at the time, so the last option would be the worst. They did make a pretense of looking on the school's web site for the conference, but (from what I could glimpse) were looking at the French version, not the English version where the conference was actually listed. Or maybe they found it and were intentionally playing dumb. Eventually I was admitted. Ironically, the conference was sponsored by the Canadian government!

Nelson69 13y ago

Was he rejected because of nervousness (his claim or maybe suggested by his article) or was he rejected for making some smart ass answers to their questions? So when they reject him, there is really only a couple of acceptable explanations that they can give, regardless of the truth, they aren't going to say "we just don't like your attitude" they're going to say "it looks like you run with some countries that we don't like." Maybe I've been re-educated or programmed by Our System, but I simply cannot fathom uttering 'al qaeda' at a border crossing just like 99+% of us wouldn't consider talking about 'bombs' or 'explosives' while in the TSA lines at the airport. Think of it as a pass/fail IQ test and from the sound of it, he failed. Probably doesn't make nearly as interesting an article to read though.

jotm 13y ago

Well, most people would be nervous and give inconsistent answers under pressure, EXCEPT trained spies and high ranking terrorists, so yeah, that's stupid as duck.