4 ms·

Behind the division of the sub-continent lies a great debate, that of Jinnah vs Gandhi. Was it the true aspiration of the people to get divided geographically w

by capex 13y ago

Behind the division of the sub-continent lies a great debate, that of Jinnah vs Gandhi. Was it the true aspiration of the people to get divided geographically while getting independence from British rule? It seems the divide happened because of some ideology driven people (Iqbal) who convinced other leaders (Jinnah) to pursue it. Today, this is a raging battle in Pakistan, did Pakistan ever need to be an independent country, considering how peacefully muslims are living in India vs the ready-to-cut-throats Pakistanis?

anigbrowl 13y ago
For those interested in history, Freedom at Midnight is a great documentary book on the liberation and subsequent partition of India: http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-at-Midnight-Dominique-Lapierre/dp/8125931864 http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-at-Midnight-Dominique-Lapierre... It's a sad fact that the departure of the British Empire from various colonial possessions frequently resulted in a power vacuum followed by deep internal conflicts which remain problematic today - Ireland, Israel, and India being three obvious examples.
- chimeracoder 13y ago
  > It's a sad fact that the departure of the British Empire from various colonial possessions frequently resulted in a power vacuum followed by deep internal conflicts which remain problematic today - Ireland, Israel, and India being three obvious examples. Let's not be overly generous. I won't speak to Ireland or Israel, but in the case of India, the political strife was not a coincidence - it was the all-but-deliberate result of the British. They actively funded terrorist groups on conflicting sides with the express goal of dividing the region not just geographically (Partition), but ideologically and politically. (This is, of course, not too different from the US funding terrorist groups when it is politically convenient to do so, and then invading foreign countries to overthrow the rulers brought to power by those same terrorist groups, when it becomes politically convenient to do that instead.)
  - vowelless 13y ago
    > They actively funded terrorist groups on conflicting sides with the express goal of dividing the region not just geographically (Partition), but ideologically and politically. Can you give me some specific examples of terrorist groups? From my readings, the British just successfully managed to divide the Hindu and Muslim populations using discriminating policies (like the pig / cow oil on guns in the 1800s), and let the divisions play out. They did support Gandhi and Jinnah, but I never came across them actively funding terrorist organizations.
- 77ko 13y ago
  I had a very different take on this book - instead of copy pasting, I'll just point you to my review here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/627096724 https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/627096724
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    Sounds like you were looking for a polemic and were disappointed to documentary work instead. Strangely enough I lerned a great deal about colonial misrule of India from reading the same book, but that doesn't make the viewpoints of the pro-empire participants less interesting.
    - cubancigar11 13y ago
      Au contraire. It is not polemic to call a spade a spade. Nor it is documentary work to propagate a biased and watered down version. In fact, it is propaganda. If you have the appetite for colonial misrule these articles might help paint a backdrop: 1. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1908/10/the-new-nationalist-movement-in-india/304893/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1908/10/the-new-... 2. http://www.celdf.org/downloads/NATURE%20and%20EMPIRE%20-%20LAXMAN%20SATYA%20ARTICLE.pdf http://www.celdf.org/downloads/NATURE%20and%20EMPIRE%20-%20L...
- coldtea 13y ago
  >It's a sad fact that the departure of the British Empire from various colonial possessions frequently resulted in a power vacuum followed by deep internal conflicts which remain problematic today - Ireland, Israel, and India being three obvious examples. Not a "sad fact". It's how the "british empire" planned it, melticulously and with great effort and cunning. It's a result of their "divide and conquer" way of ruling, in their colonial era, and it's something they pursued afterwards in order to keep it's post colonial grip on those places. With lackeys, puppet governments et al. Oh, and add Cyprus/Nothern Cyprus, Ethiopia/Eritrea etc to the mix.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    You seem to think I'm saying it was unavoidable/inevitable, but I'm deliberately abstaining from commentary on the causes. Being Irish myself, I have my opinions about this but this doesn't seem like the place to air them.
- leoc 13y ago
  That summary's not particularly on the mark in the case of Ireland.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
Pakistan is a pretty screwed up country in a great many ways, and much of their problems are due to Islam having such a central role in the identify of the country. I think they have the capacity to get past their problems but they have as difficult a problem ahead of them as does Iraq, Syria, or Lebanon. On a meta-level it's fascinating how the vast majority of countries in the world still tend to be mono-ethnic "nation states". Even in the most westernized parts of Europe there are overarching tendencies for nations to fly apart into their component sub-ethnicities rather than to stick together based on belief in common values. Look at Britain and the ongoing discontent of Wales and Scottland, let alone Northern Ireland. Or Belgium threatening to split into two countries. Or the Basques in Spain. Or the history of Czechoslovakia, the USSR, Yugoslavia, etc.
- enupten 13y ago
  It is but a surprise, that the states in India have not seceded.
- baldfat 13y ago
  well that anti-Islam rant might work IF there was no Islamic nation that wasn't peaceful.
  - charlieflowers 13y ago
    I think you have a quadruple negative going on there. Not trying to nitpick, but it was too hard for my currently sleepy brain to parse.
    - thwest 13y ago
      Appropriately reflecting the cognitive impairment of bigotry
  - InclinedPlane 13y ago
    If I said that "much of the problems in the deep South in the United States are due to the prominence of Christianity in their culture" nobody would bat an eye, and nobody would read it as being anti-Christian. Denying that there are very real problems within the Islamic world, some of which are core to the religion, is an example of naivete, ignorance, or propaganda.

by capex 13y ago

anigbrowl 13y ago

For those interested in history, Freedom at Midnight is a great documentary book on the liberation and subsequent partition of India: http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-at-Midnight-Dominique-Lapierre/dp/8125931864 http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-at-Midnight-Dominique-Lapierre... It's a sad fact that the departure of the British Empire from various colonial possessions frequently resulted in a power vacuum followed by deep internal conflicts which remain problematic today - Ireland, Israel, and India being three obvious examples.

chimeracoder 13y ago
> It's a sad fact that the departure of the British Empire from various colonial possessions frequently resulted in a power vacuum followed by deep internal conflicts which remain problematic today - Ireland, Israel, and India being three obvious examples. Let's not be overly generous. I won't speak to Ireland or Israel, but in the case of India, the political strife was not a coincidence - it was the all-but-deliberate result of the British. They actively funded terrorist groups on conflicting sides with the express goal of dividing the region not just geographically (Partition), but ideologically and politically. (This is, of course, not too different from the US funding terrorist groups when it is politically convenient to do so, and then invading foreign countries to overthrow the rulers brought to power by those same terrorist groups, when it becomes politically convenient to do that instead.)
- vowelless 13y ago
  > They actively funded terrorist groups on conflicting sides with the express goal of dividing the region not just geographically (Partition), but ideologically and politically. Can you give me some specific examples of terrorist groups? From my readings, the British just successfully managed to divide the Hindu and Muslim populations using discriminating policies (like the pig / cow oil on guns in the 1800s), and let the divisions play out. They did support Gandhi and Jinnah, but I never came across them actively funding terrorist organizations.
77ko 13y ago
I had a very different take on this book - instead of copy pasting, I'll just point you to my review here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/627096724 https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/627096724
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  Sounds like you were looking for a polemic and were disappointed to documentary work instead. Strangely enough I lerned a great deal about colonial misrule of India from reading the same book, but that doesn't make the viewpoints of the pro-empire participants less interesting.
  - cubancigar11 13y ago
    Au contraire. It is not polemic to call a spade a spade. Nor it is documentary work to propagate a biased and watered down version. In fact, it is propaganda. If you have the appetite for colonial misrule these articles might help paint a backdrop: 1. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1908/10/the-new-nationalist-movement-in-india/304893/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1908/10/the-new-... 2. http://www.celdf.org/downloads/NATURE%20and%20EMPIRE%20-%20LAXMAN%20SATYA%20ARTICLE.pdf http://www.celdf.org/downloads/NATURE%20and%20EMPIRE%20-%20L...
coldtea 13y ago
>It's a sad fact that the departure of the British Empire from various colonial possessions frequently resulted in a power vacuum followed by deep internal conflicts which remain problematic today - Ireland, Israel, and India being three obvious examples. Not a "sad fact". It's how the "british empire" planned it, melticulously and with great effort and cunning. It's a result of their "divide and conquer" way of ruling, in their colonial era, and it's something they pursued afterwards in order to keep it's post colonial grip on those places. With lackeys, puppet governments et al. Oh, and add Cyprus/Nothern Cyprus, Ethiopia/Eritrea etc to the mix.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  You seem to think I'm saying it was unavoidable/inevitable, but I'm deliberately abstaining from commentary on the causes. Being Irish myself, I have my opinions about this but this doesn't seem like the place to air them.
leoc 13y ago
That summary's not particularly on the mark in the case of Ireland.

InclinedPlane 13y ago

Pakistan is a pretty screwed up country in a great many ways, and much of their problems are due to Islam having such a central role in the identify of the country. I think they have the capacity to get past their problems but they have as difficult a problem ahead of them as does Iraq, Syria, or Lebanon. On a meta-level it's fascinating how the vast majority of countries in the world still tend to be mono-ethnic "nation states". Even in the most westernized parts of Europe there are overarching tendencies for nations to fly apart into their component sub-ethnicities rather than to stick together based on belief in common values. Look at Britain and the ongoing discontent of Wales and Scottland, let alone Northern Ireland. Or Belgium threatening to split into two countries. Or the Basques in Spain. Or the history of Czechoslovakia, the USSR, Yugoslavia, etc.

enupten 13y ago
It is but a surprise, that the states in India have not seceded.
baldfat 13y ago
well that anti-Islam rant might work IF there was no Islamic nation that wasn't peaceful.
- charlieflowers 13y ago
  I think you have a quadruple negative going on there. Not trying to nitpick, but it was too hard for my currently sleepy brain to parse.
  - thwest 13y ago
    Appropriately reflecting the cognitive impairment of bigotry
- InclinedPlane 13y ago
  If I said that "much of the problems in the deep South in the United States are due to the prominence of Christianity in their culture" nobody would bat an eye, and nobody would read it as being anti-Christian. Denying that there are very real problems within the Islamic world, some of which are core to the religion, is an example of naivete, ignorance, or propaganda.