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> Putting GPS on cars that are paid for by the taxpayer and are used by people with more power than a regular citizen is hardly some far reaching nanny state, i

> Putting GPS on cars that are paid for by the taxpayer and are used by people with more power than a regular citizen is hardly some far reaching nanny state, it is just good practice. I'd go further and say that it's quite the opposite of a nanny state (or really, a surveillance state). I don't understand where chris_mahan is coming from, as this policy seems to allow the citizenry oversight over the government, instead of the other way around.

chris_mahan 13y ago
My argument is that first the police, then firefighters. Then teachers, then schoolchildren, then all government vehicles, then all government administrators, then all government workers, then a few major corporations, then all major corporations, then small businesses, then all businesses, then students in college, then library patrons, buss-pass holders, then ex-convicts, then children, then people collecting unemployment, then people who are receiving disability payments, then retirees, then... Did I miss anyone? The slippery slope is called slippery _because_ it is slippery...
- anonyHN 13y ago
  None of your other examples have the power to stop, search, imprison other citizens based solely on their word. They are not even functional as counter-examples. How many 'corrupt firefighters' send people to jail for life or shoot someone to death and then get off scott free?
- HCIdivision17 13y ago
  My confusion is that you think there's a slope here to slip down. As mentioned in another comment, the police really are exceptional in both power and responsibility. As stated in a (far) above comment, this actually is a protection for the officer as well. Remember that they are first responders for evidence, and if they do their job well the video evidence will only bolster their credibility. And if not, it will only empower victims of abuse. None of the other groups have so much responsibility and power where trust is so critical to their functioning. I've is slippery, too, and it can take you in any direction you fall: how far are you willing to compromise a lack of oversight?
  - HCIdivision17 13y ago
    Where "I've" is an example of the sloppiness led from excessive trust in auto-correct. Should be "Ice", a word I clearly slipped up on.
- vacri 13y ago
  Your slippery slope has a very weird angle, given that schoolchildren are hit so early and ex-cons so late. Mind you, I'm not sure what abuses of power schoolchildren go for, so I'm open to being educated on the matter.
  - chris_mahan 13y ago
    abuse of power? I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about "Society feels it's important to monitor the whereabout of these individuals for reason X".
- PeterisP 13y ago
  I'd be surprised if any decent corporate fleet (deliveries, taxis, buses, whatever) doesn't have GPS in all vehicles already. And firefighters 100% need this as well, it's better for dispatching. What's so slippery? Yes, if you're driving someone elses vehicle on someone elses mission, then it's okay and beneficial to have GPS in it.
- SolarNet 13y ago
  You realise the slippery slope is also the name of a logical fallacy right? The difference between the fallacy and the logical device is warrant (the logical chain of events) and lack of reasonable demarcation. How does watching police lead to watching fire-fighters? The increased safety of the first, the already existing infrastructure, are all reasons that could happen (and may not be a bad idea, if like police, we only watch them during their job). But how does that translate to teachers. Where is the chain of events that connects them? that makes the argument a logically valid slippery slope as opposed to a fallacy? Consider gay marriage leading to bestiality and pedophilia. There is a reasonable demarcation point. Two legally consenting adults (humans obviously). Is a reasonable position somewhere along the slope. There is also no warrant. There is no link to gay people marrying and an increase in bestiality or pedophilia. Hence Logical fallacy. Consider free speech and banning certain types of speech (specifically information and the banning of some types of information (rape porn as an example)) leading to censorship and violations of free speech and privacy. There is warrant here: * Because we are already filtering for objectionable material, why not also read the information and look for terrorists, oh and criminals. Who reads and filters this data? How do we control it? * Cryptography becomes illegal, or controlled, so that we can look for objectional material. Removing privacy and making free speech difficult. * It becomes harder to report crime, since the crime of reading information about other crimes becomes more serious than the crimes themselves.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >You realise the slippery slope is also the name of a logical fallacy right? You know that "logical fallacies" are BS that have nothing to do with Logic (formal logic and reasoning) and are wrong in thelselves besides, right? >Where is the chain of events that connects them? that makes the argument a logically valid slippery slope as opposed to a fallacy? It's called the "Overton Window". Check it out. Oh, and the "chain of events connecting them" is the all increasing deployment of surveillance since the mid 20th century. An actual "slippery slope" in action, if I ever saw one.
    - justathrow2k 13y ago
      you, sir, are a fucking idiot.

chris_mahan 13y ago

My argument is that first the police, then firefighters. Then teachers, then schoolchildren, then all government vehicles, then all government administrators, then all government workers, then a few major corporations, then all major corporations, then small businesses, then all businesses, then students in college, then library patrons, buss-pass holders, then ex-convicts, then children, then people collecting unemployment, then people who are receiving disability payments, then retirees, then... Did I miss anyone? The slippery slope is called slippery _because_ it is slippery...

anonyHN 13y ago
None of your other examples have the power to stop, search, imprison other citizens based solely on their word. They are not even functional as counter-examples. How many 'corrupt firefighters' send people to jail for life or shoot someone to death and then get off scott free?
HCIdivision17 13y ago
My confusion is that you think there's a slope here to slip down. As mentioned in another comment, the police really are exceptional in both power and responsibility. As stated in a (far) above comment, this actually is a protection for the officer as well. Remember that they are first responders for evidence, and if they do their job well the video evidence will only bolster their credibility. And if not, it will only empower victims of abuse. None of the other groups have so much responsibility and power where trust is so critical to their functioning. I've is slippery, too, and it can take you in any direction you fall: how far are you willing to compromise a lack of oversight?
- HCIdivision17 13y ago
  Where "I've" is an example of the sloppiness led from excessive trust in auto-correct. Should be "Ice", a word I clearly slipped up on.
vacri 13y ago
Your slippery slope has a very weird angle, given that schoolchildren are hit so early and ex-cons so late. Mind you, I'm not sure what abuses of power schoolchildren go for, so I'm open to being educated on the matter.
- chris_mahan 13y ago
  abuse of power? I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about "Society feels it's important to monitor the whereabout of these individuals for reason X".
PeterisP 13y ago
I'd be surprised if any decent corporate fleet (deliveries, taxis, buses, whatever) doesn't have GPS in all vehicles already. And firefighters 100% need this as well, it's better for dispatching. What's so slippery? Yes, if you're driving someone elses vehicle on someone elses mission, then it's okay and beneficial to have GPS in it.
SolarNet 13y ago
You realise the slippery slope is also the name of a logical fallacy right? The difference between the fallacy and the logical device is warrant (the logical chain of events) and lack of reasonable demarcation. How does watching police lead to watching fire-fighters? The increased safety of the first, the already existing infrastructure, are all reasons that could happen (and may not be a bad idea, if like police, we only watch them during their job). But how does that translate to teachers. Where is the chain of events that connects them? that makes the argument a logically valid slippery slope as opposed to a fallacy? Consider gay marriage leading to bestiality and pedophilia. There is a reasonable demarcation point. Two legally consenting adults (humans obviously). Is a reasonable position somewhere along the slope. There is also no warrant. There is no link to gay people marrying and an increase in bestiality or pedophilia. Hence Logical fallacy. Consider free speech and banning certain types of speech (specifically information and the banning of some types of information (rape porn as an example)) leading to censorship and violations of free speech and privacy. There is warrant here: * Because we are already filtering for objectionable material, why not also read the information and look for terrorists, oh and criminals. Who reads and filters this data? How do we control it? * Cryptography becomes illegal, or controlled, so that we can look for objectional material. Removing privacy and making free speech difficult. * It becomes harder to report crime, since the crime of reading information about other crimes becomes more serious than the crimes themselves.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >You realise the slippery slope is also the name of a logical fallacy right? You know that "logical fallacies" are BS that have nothing to do with Logic (formal logic and reasoning) and are wrong in thelselves besides, right? >Where is the chain of events that connects them? that makes the argument a logically valid slippery slope as opposed to a fallacy? It's called the "Overton Window". Check it out. Oh, and the "chain of events connecting them" is the all increasing deployment of surveillance since the mid 20th century. An actual "slippery slope" in action, if I ever saw one.
  - justathrow2k 13y ago
    you, sir, are a fucking idiot.