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This is HN. Trash talking anything Java related is image-enhancing amongst code fashionistas.

pron 13y ago
I don't think this is the case. After all, Twitter, LinkedIn, Netflix, Square, Foursquare and eBay are pretty much JVM-only shops, almost all of Facebook's important stuff runs on the JVM, as well as much of Google and Amazon. I don't think anyone honestly thinks the JVM is not very much in fashion.
- sdesol 13y ago
  I like the JVM but I really don't think the general population of programmers would call it fashionable. I have a friend who never visits HN but has a distrust for it even though his exposure to it was decades ago. The hardware back then was just not ready for it and it probably left some lasting scars. I find that Java and the JVM is just something that you don't talk about, which is why it's never going to be fashionable. Useful yes. Fashionable, I'm not sure.
pixelmonkey 13y ago
I use the JVM "as little as is absolutely necessary", which is often, thanks to technologies like Lucene, Hadoop, Storm, Zookeeper, etc. And, "code fashionista"? Hah, give me a break. Python actually predates Java. I can't tell you how many times in the period 2005-2009 people derided me for using a "scripting" language for real work. All the "real programmers" used C++ or Java, of course! Then, in 2009-2013, everyone suddenly realizes, oh, perhaps we don't need 200 classes per 1,000 lines of code and perhaps we don't need an IDE to that vomits boilerplate all day long and perhaps static types aren't such an important thing and perhaps generics are overrated and perhaps programmer time truly is much more expensive than machine time, ... and, now I'm a "code fashionista" for still using Python for production projects, 6 years later? The "scripting" language that's so non-serious that it's used by thousands of production large-scale systems and scientists the world over? Yes, that one -- the "fashionable" language. The one that isn't fussy and just gets work done.
- pron 13y ago
  Python is a language, and isn't any more concise than Groovy or Clojure. Also, if the "stuff" you need to get "done" is process a million transactions per second on a concurrent database that runs on a 64-core machine then it's completely inadequate. In all those companies I mentioned, Java the language's competitor is C++, not Python, and that's pretty much the language you can compare Java to. Also, "everyone" is just most people in web startups, which are a very small minority of software developers with very specific needs. They usually work in small teams, so languages designed to help with large project management are not a requirement, but a very fast turnaround is. So, sure, Python is better suited than Java if those are your requirements. This is still just a tangent to the JVM discussion.

pron 13y ago

I don't think this is the case. After all, Twitter, LinkedIn, Netflix, Square, Foursquare and eBay are pretty much JVM-only shops, almost all of Facebook's important stuff runs on the JVM, as well as much of Google and Amazon. I don't think anyone honestly thinks the JVM is not very much in fashion.

sdesol 13y ago
I like the JVM but I really don't think the general population of programmers would call it fashionable. I have a friend who never visits HN but has a distrust for it even though his exposure to it was decades ago. The hardware back then was just not ready for it and it probably left some lasting scars. I find that Java and the JVM is just something that you don't talk about, which is why it's never going to be fashionable. Useful yes. Fashionable, I'm not sure.

pixelmonkey 13y ago

I use the JVM "as little as is absolutely necessary", which is often, thanks to technologies like Lucene, Hadoop, Storm, Zookeeper, etc. And, "code fashionista"? Hah, give me a break. Python actually predates Java. I can't tell you how many times in the period 2005-2009 people derided me for using a "scripting" language for real work. All the "real programmers" used C++ or Java, of course! Then, in 2009-2013, everyone suddenly realizes, oh, perhaps we don't need 200 classes per 1,000 lines of code and perhaps we don't need an IDE to that vomits boilerplate all day long and perhaps static types aren't such an important thing and perhaps generics are overrated and perhaps programmer time truly is much more expensive than machine time, ... and, now I'm a "code fashionista" for still using Python for production projects, 6 years later? The "scripting" language that's so non-serious that it's used by thousands of production large-scale systems and scientists the world over? Yes, that one -- the "fashionable" language. The one that isn't fussy and just gets work done.

pron 13y ago
Python is a language, and isn't any more concise than Groovy or Clojure. Also, if the "stuff" you need to get "done" is process a million transactions per second on a concurrent database that runs on a 64-core machine then it's completely inadequate. In all those companies I mentioned, Java the language's competitor is C++, not Python, and that's pretty much the language you can compare Java to. Also, "everyone" is just most people in web startups, which are a very small minority of software developers with very specific needs. They usually work in small teams, so languages designed to help with large project management are not a requirement, but a very fast turnaround is. So, sure, Python is better suited than Java if those are your requirements. This is still just a tangent to the JVM discussion.