6 ms·

"For a while, as he also acknowledges, he was "married to his job," and didn't give his wife enough encouragement and support as she brought up their children."

by larrys 13y ago

"For a while, as he also acknowledges, he was "married to his job," and didn't give his wife enough encouragement and support as she brought up their children." Great comment but it's unclear to me how giving his wife encouragement and support as she brought up their children would have changed the outcome? Are you saying they wouldn't have gotten divorced? And if they hadn't he would still have a place to live? From my experience if you don't "bring home the bacon" spouses have little sympathy or care about little else. Money is a basic necessity. The most important thing is earning a living. No spouse that I ever know of ever cared about how many ball games or how you helped around the kitchen or shared responsibilities if you don't bring home a paycheck.

VLM 13y ago
I read it as younger, more foolish people believe if they're the best quisling they can be, if they can just throw away their life for the cause better than the next guy is throwing away his life, then the cause will obviously reciprocate and take care of him later, when he needs it. So throw away the kids sports games, work 80 hours, at least the company will take care of me later when I need help. The real world usually does not work like that, and the only really certain outcome of being the best slave you can be, is missing out on being a parent. And/or husband. As a supposedly honors college grad and well read and all that he surely has heard of the greek concept of moderation in all things etc. May have not made it into the essay for whatever reason. If he talked back to his boss and "cut back" to 70 hours, he probably would still be in the biz, or maybe he would have been downsized for not being a team player. Who knows. But one certain result would have been being a parent or husband for ten more hours/week.
- Unosolo 13y ago
  A lot of modern high-paying jobs that require rare skills are all-or-nothing affairs: the choice between fewer hours & less pay and more hours & more money just isn't there. Some teams have to be small and be able to react quickly to very tight deadlines meaning high work intensity and long hours to remain just on top of what's going on in the environment.
marquis 13y ago
Not being around as your family grows up means that they have less emotional support when things go wrong. If he had worked less and earned less, then suddenly things fail, he may have had a better relationship with his partner to say hey, let's figure this out. At some point not having your partner around because they choose to work instead of being with you just gets hard and you start to lose faith in them as the person you want to be with the rest of your life. Not to say that under any circumstances things would have worked out but it's not fair to say the wife wanted money and otherwise get out.
nostrademons 13y ago
I don't think that's really true. My dad was a househusband from about a year after I was born until his death. My mom grumbled about it once or twice, but she stuck with him until then, and I always got the feeling she didn't care all that much about the money. What does seem to be non-negotiable is self-respect; I don't know anyone who can respect or care about someone who doesn't respect themselves. And as a man in contemporary American society, you get a lot of messages that you're worthless if you don't have a job. You don't have to buy into those messages, though. I've also found that there's a high degree of selection bias in what spouses care about. If you always end up in relationships where people care about "bringing home the bacon", it's probably because you care about bringing home the bacon, and people tend to attract like-minded partners. There are many, many women who don't care about this.
jcampbell1 13y ago
My take was that he left the workforce to spend more time with his family, and that was the explanation for his two year resume gap that ultimately snowballed into homelessness. I don't know what the lesson is, but it is either: 1) Find work-life balance so you don't feel the need to take an extended sabbatical to spend time with your family. 2) Even if you really want to take time off to spend time with your family, being continuously earner is more important. Even $500k in savings disappears quickly if the job market turns.
overgryphon 13y ago
I think you read the wrong message about why his marriage ended. Rather than separating over the lack of paycheck, he and his ex-wife chose to forgo his paycheck initially because the demands of his high-stress job did not leave room for his role as a husband and father. He did not work for two years by choice in order to be with his family. When he wasn't able to go back, they continued on together as a family through foreclosure, living in a two-bedroom apartment as a family with 8 children. He didn't earn a paycheck for six years before they separated. It sounds like they continued on together until they were simply unable to pay for housing. She took the younger children to Germany, where as citizens they had a good education system and social safety net to rely on, and he stayed in the States and kept in contact with the teenage kids so they could remain in the same high school. These decisions do not reflect a spouse that simply does not care how many ball games her husband attended. They describe a team who consistently prioritized their children's stability and education over a paycheck or even their marriage.
- nhangen 13y ago
  Except that she let him remain homeless and fell in love with another man.
  - ludston 13y ago
    Why is that not ok?
    - ivanca 13y ago
      Seriously? "I provided for you and our 8 kids for 15 years but it's pretty much OK if you just want to go to live in Germany to sleep with another dude and leave me here to die alone by hunger just because now I'm hitting rock bottom economically" Is not about love, is about being a fucking decent human being.
      - overgryphon 13y ago
        She moved to Germany to provide housing, health care, and education for their younger children. Divorce came later.
BadCookie 13y ago
My husband was laid off two years ago. Since then, I "bring home the bacon." He cooks, does the dishes, does the laundry, cleans the house, does all of the shopping, works on the house, walks the dog, does my errands, and just about everything else. When we have a baby, he will be the primary caretaker of our child. It is not the usual path, but it is working out well for us so far. The hardest part for me was getting over the notion that I was being taken advantage of. Money was not the issue, fairness was. However, we are in the admittedly privileged position of being able to live well off of one income. If we were struggling financially, I suppose that I would be telling a different story.
- bobbydavid 13y ago
  Thanks for sharing this! I'm curious to hear more. Could you share how (or to what extent) you got over your feeling of being taken advantage of?
- gshubert17 13y ago
  In the late 1980s, I was a househusband at home with our daughter while my wife worked. In the early 1990s, we traded places and she stayed home with our son while I worked. About 4 years each time. We were fortunate in being able, as you said, to live well off of one income. But it puts a dent in one's career path. I was a software engineer, but found it difficult afterwards to get back into development. So I did testing, systems admin, database maintenance, even teaching. I hope your family can make your situation work out in ways that are good for all of you.
groby_b 13y ago
Find different spouses. Not everybody has money as their first priority. Yes, you're a team and split work, and both parties contribute - but that split can look different for different people. If you can afford it, why not take some time out to spend it with your children?

by larrys 13y ago

VLM 13y ago

I read it as younger, more foolish people believe if they're the best quisling they can be, if they can just throw away their life for the cause better than the next guy is throwing away his life, then the cause will obviously reciprocate and take care of him later, when he needs it. So throw away the kids sports games, work 80 hours, at least the company will take care of me later when I need help. The real world usually does not work like that, and the only really certain outcome of being the best slave you can be, is missing out on being a parent. And/or husband. As a supposedly honors college grad and well read and all that he surely has heard of the greek concept of moderation in all things etc. May have not made it into the essay for whatever reason. If he talked back to his boss and "cut back" to 70 hours, he probably would still be in the biz, or maybe he would have been downsized for not being a team player. Who knows. But one certain result would have been being a parent or husband for ten more hours/week.

Unosolo 13y ago
A lot of modern high-paying jobs that require rare skills are all-or-nothing affairs: the choice between fewer hours & less pay and more hours & more money just isn't there. Some teams have to be small and be able to react quickly to very tight deadlines meaning high work intensity and long hours to remain just on top of what's going on in the environment.

marquis 13y ago

Not being around as your family grows up means that they have less emotional support when things go wrong. If he had worked less and earned less, then suddenly things fail, he may have had a better relationship with his partner to say hey, let's figure this out. At some point not having your partner around because they choose to work instead of being with you just gets hard and you start to lose faith in them as the person you want to be with the rest of your life. Not to say that under any circumstances things would have worked out but it's not fair to say the wife wanted money and otherwise get out.

nostrademons 13y ago

I don't think that's really true. My dad was a househusband from about a year after I was born until his death. My mom grumbled about it once or twice, but she stuck with him until then, and I always got the feeling she didn't care all that much about the money. What does seem to be non-negotiable is self-respect; I don't know anyone who can respect or care about someone who doesn't respect themselves. And as a man in contemporary American society, you get a lot of messages that you're worthless if you don't have a job. You don't have to buy into those messages, though. I've also found that there's a high degree of selection bias in what spouses care about. If you always end up in relationships where people care about "bringing home the bacon", it's probably because you care about bringing home the bacon, and people tend to attract like-minded partners. There are many, many women who don't care about this.

jcampbell1 13y ago

My take was that he left the workforce to spend more time with his family, and that was the explanation for his two year resume gap that ultimately snowballed into homelessness. I don't know what the lesson is, but it is either: 1) Find work-life balance so you don't feel the need to take an extended sabbatical to spend time with your family. 2) Even if you really want to take time off to spend time with your family, being continuously earner is more important. Even $500k in savings disappears quickly if the job market turns.

overgryphon 13y ago

I think you read the wrong message about why his marriage ended. Rather than separating over the lack of paycheck, he and his ex-wife chose to forgo his paycheck initially because the demands of his high-stress job did not leave room for his role as a husband and father. He did not work for two years by choice in order to be with his family. When he wasn't able to go back, they continued on together as a family through foreclosure, living in a two-bedroom apartment as a family with 8 children. He didn't earn a paycheck for six years before they separated. It sounds like they continued on together until they were simply unable to pay for housing. She took the younger children to Germany, where as citizens they had a good education system and social safety net to rely on, and he stayed in the States and kept in contact with the teenage kids so they could remain in the same high school. These decisions do not reflect a spouse that simply does not care how many ball games her husband attended. They describe a team who consistently prioritized their children's stability and education over a paycheck or even their marriage.

nhangen 13y ago
Except that she let him remain homeless and fell in love with another man.
- ludston 13y ago
  Why is that not ok?
  - ivanca 13y ago
    Seriously? "I provided for you and our 8 kids for 15 years but it's pretty much OK if you just want to go to live in Germany to sleep with another dude and leave me here to die alone by hunger just because now I'm hitting rock bottom economically" Is not about love, is about being a fucking decent human being.
    - overgryphon 13y ago
      She moved to Germany to provide housing, health care, and education for their younger children. Divorce came later.

BadCookie 13y ago

My husband was laid off two years ago. Since then, I "bring home the bacon." He cooks, does the dishes, does the laundry, cleans the house, does all of the shopping, works on the house, walks the dog, does my errands, and just about everything else. When we have a baby, he will be the primary caretaker of our child. It is not the usual path, but it is working out well for us so far. The hardest part for me was getting over the notion that I was being taken advantage of. Money was not the issue, fairness was. However, we are in the admittedly privileged position of being able to live well off of one income. If we were struggling financially, I suppose that I would be telling a different story.

bobbydavid 13y ago
Thanks for sharing this! I'm curious to hear more. Could you share how (or to what extent) you got over your feeling of being taken advantage of?
gshubert17 13y ago
In the late 1980s, I was a househusband at home with our daughter while my wife worked. In the early 1990s, we traded places and she stayed home with our son while I worked. About 4 years each time. We were fortunate in being able, as you said, to live well off of one income. But it puts a dent in one's career path. I was a software engineer, but found it difficult afterwards to get back into development. So I did testing, systems admin, database maintenance, even teaching. I hope your family can make your situation work out in ways that are good for all of you.

groby_b 13y ago

Find different spouses. Not everybody has money as their first priority. Yes, you're a team and split work, and both parties contribute - but that split can look different for different people. If you can afford it, why not take some time out to spend it with your children?