9 ms·

So, oddly enough, the thing that bothered me the most about this article was the way his wife left him. I read stories like this a lot online, where two marrie

• cafard 13y ago
  >> Is it really that easy? I don't know. I do know that marriages break up for many reasons, not all of them obvious to outsiders (or even one or both insiders). Do you think that the wife, who had spent the last n years raising eight children, had any skills that would get her a job bringing in enough money to keep both of them going?
  • VLM 13y ago
    Well, in summary, I don't think there are many ex-poor people posting on HN. The primary problem is he had too much hope. If he knew it was going to come to this, cashing in the chips earlier and moving out of the house ASAP would have been much better off financially than letting the house drain his net worth to zero at which point it couldn't drain any more. Part of that hope is he still saw (still sees?) himself as a wealthy comedy writer and he might get hired as a local... but not if he's living in Germany as a house-husband. So to move away he'd have to give up hope, which he apparently refused to do. Ever. Now the wife's "skill" was in having German citizenship. So she comes from a more civilized country where she doesn't have to sleep in a '97 minivan and can occasionally eat. So she pretty much has to go there and take the smallest of the kids with her. As an economic refugee or whatever. I've occasionally considered if I absolutely had to (like, ultimate worst case scenario) I'd become an economic refugee and move to a more civilized country, like Canada. I actually have enough "points" to immigrate legally, for that matter. Depressing as this sounds (because it is depressing...) as my elderly ancestors are dying off, I literally have fewer reasons every year to stay in the USA. So an upgrade is likely in my future. You have to do what you have to do to keep the kids alive, and that means the wife is moving to Germany with the little kids, and he is staying in CA in the wild hope that he will get back in the biz. And long distance relationships being what they are...
  • kamaal 13y ago
    >>Do you think that the wife, who had spent the last n years raising eight children, had any skills that would get her a job bringing in enough money to keep both of them going? You make it look like a profit-loss statement, in which its acceptable to walk out of a deal if its not profitable. If that's the standard in a relationship, do you know the most dangerous part? Marriage doesn't make any sense for any man from that perspective. Marriage helps women more than it helps men. The man works all his life, like this guy worked 17 hr/day every day. Only to find when things get a little low, the wife will go to another man. He might as well not get married, keep the money from his work for himself.
    • girvo 13y ago
      Indeed. A lot of men are coming to this realisation, and a lot of women are too ("Man Up!"). It'll be interesting to see how society handles it.
    • cafard 13y ago
      I replied to a comment by someone describing himself as 23 years old. I have been married longer than that, and thought it not impossible I might know more about marriage than he does. I wished to raise a couple of points; I don't know whether repetition and amplification will help, but here goes: 1. Marriages fail. Over, as the epigram says "Nothing of importance:/Nothing but money, sex, and self-importance." 2. The writer judged that he could not keep a roof over his family's head; he moved to his van, his wife in with a couple of their daughters. In my view, her primary responsibility at that point was to the well-being of the children, and she seems to have made a sensible decision. Do you know that the older daughters could have accommodated two sisters, a mother and a father? If not, on what grounds do you blame her? I really don't see what profitable deals have to do with this. 3. 17 hr/day. Yes, in the job he dreamed of, writing for a sitcom. I've worked with people working 17 to 17 hours a day, half of it cleaning motels and the other half not much more entertaining or glamorous. The two cases do not seem comparable. 4. "A little low ... another man". They had no house, and the wife was long separated when she met someone else, back in Germany.
• toomuchtodo 13y ago
  I'm 30, and while I have never considered leaving my wife, I have been through some soul-crushing shit. The kind where you sit on the third story of a parking garage ledge contemplating options. During that time, I never considered it leaving my wife, as my life insurance policy covered suicide and would've left my wife financially secure forever ($1MM+). I hope you never have to experience such despair, but having been there, I can see how people decide to split even if married. When things are at their darkest, nothing is off the table.
  • alextingle 13y ago
    Hope you are living better times now.
    • toomuchtodo 13y ago
      Much better. Thank you.
  • sliverstorm 13y ago
    Last time I crunched the numbers, $1M will provide security but probably not indefinitely sustainable income. If you manage 6-7% in the stock market, that's $60-70k/year, but 6-7% is the decade-over-decade average. Any one given year can be 1% (or even negative). $10M on the other hand provides solidly middle-class income even in years of terrible market performance.
    • toomuchtodo 13y ago
      Home and vehicles were paid off; my wife is frugal and we live in a low-cost area. It would've supplemented her income from her mid-20's until retirement. Also, getting a $10MM policy is a lot more difficult than a $1MM policy.
      • sliverstorm 13y ago
        All perfectly true, and I agree that $1M is more that sufficient as supplemental income. Edit: You were 30 and you owned your home free-and-clear? Good show!
• mooreds 13y ago
  Marriage isn't easy, and we have no idea what is being glossed over in this excerpt. We don't even know if his family was supporting him in other ways (meals/doctor's appointments when he visited, money sent, etc). It'd be interested to read the book and see just how 'casual' the wife's departure was--I'm guessing after 8 kids it wasn't.
  • Xcelerate 13y ago
    That's a good point. There could be another side to the story we're not hearing. (I updated my post to remove "casual").
• willvarfar 13y ago
  Divorce rates are easily googlable. From it, you can extrapolate that your ideals are not shared by your countrymen. You can wonder if they lack moral fibre, or if you lack experience.
  • tbrownaw 13y ago
    You can wonder if they lack moral fibre, or if you lack experience. Or perhaps both, as in moral fibre is an illusion brought on by lack of experience (i.e., is largely due to the fundamental attribution error)?
  • enraged_camel 13y ago
    >>You can wonder if they lack moral fibre, or if you lack experience. False dichotomy.
• smackfu 13y ago
  >one just gives up on the other person when times get hard. That's a pretty simple summary. You don't go from prosperous to poor without a lot of stress and frustration, and that can change people, usually for the worse. If your partner used to be very loving, and spend time with you, and now is working all the time, and angry at the world in general, and lashes out at you for not doing something trivial, and you fight all the time... at some point you just move on.
• pcrh 13y ago
  Frankly, he has two working-age daughters, yet apparently neither will support him until he gets some kind of job. It doesn't say much for the family dynamic...
  • sliverstorm 13y ago
    Like mother, like daughter?
• AndyJ1972 13y ago
  My other half said to me one day early in our relationship, as I was facing brancrupcy due largely to my business partner.... "I don't care if we live in a tent if I'm with you." I recounted that line to her when I proposed years later.
  • Xcelerate 13y ago
    That's great to hear!
  • cylinder 13y ago
    Words are cheap. People, things, circumstances, beliefs, ideals all change with time.
    • intenex 13y ago
      Wow, that wasn't the most cynical thing I've ever heard at all.
      • cylinder 13y ago
        It's cynical to say that people change? This is one of the most fundamental aspects of being human. If you prefer to live in a cocoon don't expect HN comments to comply with your worldview.
        • gshubert17 13y ago
          Mary Doria Russell put it memorably (for me) in this quote, http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/417319-we-all-make-vows-jimmy-and-there-is-something-very http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/417319-we-all-make-vows-jimm... It's longer, but here's one part. The speaker is explaining being married 4 times to 4 different men (each named George--the "same" person). "Every ten years or so, George and I have faced the fact that we have changed and we've had to decide if it makes sense to create a new marriage between these two new people. . . . Which is why vows are such a tricky business. Because nothing stays the same forever."
      • 13y ago
• crusso 13y ago
  I would take this guy's account with a great big huge grain of salt. The guy writes for a living. I have no reason to believe his words as written, especially when the facts don't seem to make much sense. That said, you seem to think that people getting married are rational and completely committed to their marital agreements. Unfaithful spouse statistics and divorce statistics tell a much different story.
• thasmin 13y ago
  I think it can be easily argues that all marriages are made with imperfect information. Not only do people not know their spouse, but they also don't know themselves. Then consider how people change over their lifetime and I wonder how the divorce rate is so low. When you get married, you aren't signing up to be a caretaker to a mentally unstable spouse. If your spouse is harming your children, it's your responsibility to get your children out of that situation however possible. There are thousands of legitimate situations that you'd agree are worthy of divorce. There's a lot not said in this article. It's completely possible that he and his wife weren't well suited for each other to begin with. Roseanne was on the air for nine seasons. That's a lot of time to build resentment and hatred, if that's what was happening. Maybe the two years where he stayed at home let them figure out just how much they didn't care for each other. There are lots of legit possibilities. It's not as simple as not living up to your commitment.
  • ams6110 13y ago
    It's not as simple as not living up to your commitment. Yeah, mostly it really is. I'd make an exception if there is abuse or cheating going on, but yes when you get married you are signing up to be a caretaker to a sick, unstable, dying, unemployed, depressed, failing, whatever spouse. That's the deal. If you aren't prepared for that, don't get married.
    • l33tbro 13y ago
      That's incredibly idealistic. As thasmin says, people don't know themselves when they're getting married. I think you read it as a justification (rather than an explanation - which I believe is what the thasmin meant) of why people leave.
    • auctiontheory 13y ago
      If you aren't prepared for that, don't get married. Have you been married to a mentally ill person? Probably not. Why so quick to judge? (And why the arbitrary exception for abuse or cheating?)
      • 13y ago
• parasubvert 13y ago
  Half of all marriages in the USA end in divorce. It can cost a lot of money in legal fees when child custody and access are involved and there's any contentiousness (say $50k normally, upwards of $250,000 for a real fight). So yes, if the relationship deteriorates sufficiently, it is "that easy". Vows don't mean much anymore. People marry with very limited information. If they truly had to vow, they'd wait a lot longer (many years!) before deciding. It is amazing how two people that once vowed to live with each other can become mortal enemies filled with rage, but it's surprisingly common.
• jianshen 13y ago
  Nothing like this will ever be easy or decided in an instant. A close friend of mine once categorized these types of decisions as "choices no one should ever have to make." Once you're faced with them, you learn something new about yourself and no one can prepare you for it. I find comfort more in the fact that a decision is made rather than dwelling on the consequences because life is just too precious to be spent on resentment and regret. Sometimes, just having a decision made can be the best possible outcome...
• cylinder 13y ago
  Reality doesn't work like that. The stress and depression from lack of income and the prospect of homelessness will rapidly destroy the "good feelings" that power love and a relationship as well as many women's attraction to their male partner. If a woman can escape homelessness and poverty by re-marrying someone else, it seems to be a rational choice. Do you really think she would tough it out with him on the streets just for the sake of "love?" Why -- to avoid a latent feeling of guilt? We are all self-interested beings, even the love we offer others is in our own self-interest. I would have got my spousal visa to Germany asap and headed there with the wife, personally.
  • kamaal 13y ago
    Almost any partner who can't be with you during your struggles definitely doesn't deserve to be with you during your success. Besides, what the purpose of a man's life anyway? To slog until death to provide milk and honey to the kids and wife. And then be perfectly OK to be dumped like a 'use and throw' napkin on the street when you can't provide further. While the wife goes to live with another man, and kids go their paths. I wouldn't be surprised if marriage as an institution is completely destroyed in the far future. Because after some time men will make 'rational' choices too. Its far better to stay single make money for your later years. Than to have a family who is going to milk you until they can, and ultimately leave you anyway.
  • rurounijones 13y ago
    It SOUNDS like she went to Germany first so that their children had a safety net which seems totally prudent. I don't think the other guy came into it until later. I would also be interested to know if they divorced before or after the move to Germany.
• crpatino 13y ago
  My grandmother used to say that there are 2 vacant thrones in heaven, waiting for the couple that never did regret to have gotten married.
• jng 13y ago
  I'm turning 40 next week and I haven't been in a situation like that, but I've been in many kinds of situations. If you expect human beings to act rationally, to stay true to their vows no matter what, to actually know why they do things, to actually do the things they know are best for them, etc........ I can only say you're in for a hell of a ride. Good luck.
  • girvo 13y ago
    Sometimes I wonder if I'm lucky for having been through hell on earth a few times in my short (23) life already. Some would say it's turned me into a cynic. On the contrary, I'm optimistic about peoples ability to adapt, and my own. I know that life is hard, and that helps me prepare rather well!
• franze 13y ago
  life is what happens while you make plans.
• auctiontheory 13y ago
  Have you met him? I haven't. I don't think we know enough about him, his situation, his wife, or his kids, to judge them for their actions. I ordered the book on Amazon, and I'm sure it will be a good read from which I can learn a lot. At the end of it, I won't have to judge all the characters.
• bambax 13y ago
  It's a question of available energy. Raising children requires energy; I think raising eight children requires an enormous amount of energy (I have 3 and can barely manage). Fighting poverty requires a lot of energy, esp. when there are 10 mouths to feed. And a maintaining a relationship in the long term also requires energy -- much more than you think: staying married is a full-time job. So I think that at the end of the day there probably wasn't enough energy left for the relationship, and so it broke. Nothing to do with vows or morals here; just a fuel problem.
• Unosolo 13y ago
  I am 35 and I share this mindset about close relationships. Family is similar to a start-up in that founders should be prepared to carry each other through ups and downs pooling the risks and sharing not only profits but losses. What I learned from failed relationships so far is that you have to be careful who you closely associate with for start-up and family purposes alike. The initial excitement and enthusiasm might be blinding, you owe it to yourself to vet candidates carefully.
• nsxwolf 13y ago
  Marriage vows are meaningless in a non-religious context. I'm not saying religious marriages are more successful (statistics show they're roughly as likely to fail), but I can't come up with a serious secular case for maintaining a wedding vow or any other kind of vow. The "worse" part of the vow has an asterisk after it. Most spouses will have a maximum level of badness they will tolerate, then they will split.
  • wavefunction 13y ago
    I downvoted you for your bias about marriage vows being meaningless in a non-religous context. It may be difficult for the religious to understand, but atheists and agnostics can certainly be as moral or more so as a religious person. Those of us that are not religious can derive our morality from valid sources other than religion, including real life. Humans do not require morality from a higher power, and to assert otherwise is to assert your own bigotry.
    • nsxwolf 13y ago
      That's fair, but I just don't see why anyone would allow a "vow" to have any hold on them in extreme situations unless they felt some cosmic thing were being violated. There is certainly no legal or even significant social pressure to stay with a spouse at any cost, so what significance does breaking the "vow" hold? Not being true to oneself? Then you're sort of your own god, willing to punish yourself for something everyone else is readily willing to forgive you for. I can't imagine someone making a personal vow to pay back their mortgage at any cost, when they're legally allowed to walk away. Even if it meant the total destruction of their future.
      • deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
  • dragonwriter 13y ago
    > Marriage vows are meaningless in a non-religious context. Since marriage was a legal contract of the government before the Church got involved (originally, at something of arms length) in blessing marriages, and because it remained a legal contract enforceable through the civil courts even after the Church got deeply involved, I don't think that's even a little bit true. It may be true that various modern concepts like no-fault divorce have made specific legal consequences of violating the express or implied promises in marriage less significant in the modern world, mutual promises have meaning even outside an enforcement regime, and the historical precedent of a non-religious enforcement regime demonstrates that the religious content is not essential to meaning even if you view meaning as requiring an external punishment structure.