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Obviously, you have strong opinions about this subject and I will try to tread carefully, but your comment reads like you are not in favor an app that attempts

Obviously, you have strong opinions about this subject and I will try to tread carefully, but your comment reads like you are not in favor an app that attempts to assist in preventing suicide. And on this point: > To understand suicide, you have to understand wanting to kill yourself, and you cannot understand this intellectually, you have to have experienced it yourself. Not all people who attempt suicide have the same mindset. I know people who have attempted suicide (one guy's face is disfigured due to a self-inflicted gun shot) and they do not even remotely suggest that suicide could possibly be anything but bad.

itistoday2 13y ago
> Not all people who attempt suicide have the same mindset. I know people who have attempted suicide (one guy's face is disfigured due to a self-inflicted gun shot) and they do not even remotely suggest that suicide could possibly be anything but bad. Yes, that's a great point. There are a variety of viewpoints to consider, and it's important to understand the context in which they all occur. I'm sure the person you're referring to did not have that opinion a few moments before pulling the trigger, otherwise he wouldn't have done it. The surviving individual cannot be said to be the same one who pulled the trigger, in spite of appearances. His life went on, and in a radically different direction.
- jsmeaton 13y ago
  > I'm sure the person you're referring to did not have that opinion a few moments before pulling the trigger, otherwise he wouldn't have done it But I think that's exactly where suicide and euthanasia are different, where you claim they are synonyms. Euthanasia is for people that are suffering, in pain, and cannot get better. Suicide, in the context of depression and other mental illnesses, is for people that are suffering, in pain, and can get better. Not to suggest that the suffering or pain is any different, but that the available treatments are very much different. I would argue that your points of view are more akin to terrorism and/or sadist, because you're peddling the kind of information that leads these people to truly believe that they can't get better. And that's why a project, that the OP is attempting, is virtuous IMO. I agree with other commenters here that there are some very very important considerations though, and it should not just be released onto the world without very careful scrutiny, both legal and medical.
  - itistoday2 13y ago
    > But I think that's exactly where suicide and euthanasia are different, where you claim they are synonyms. Euthanasia is for people that are suffering, in pain, and cannot get better. Suicide, in the context of depression and other mental illnesses, is for people that are suffering, in pain, and can get better. I'm sorry, but where did you find the Guidebook To Life that lays out the precise rules of what is and isn't an acceptable time for suicide? And what is the reason we should follow the advice in this book as opposed to some other book that says the exact opposite? Regarding mental illness, that is in fact some of the worst type of illness you can get (I personally feel it is the worst type). You can carry on just fine without an arm or a leg (or no arms and no legs![1]), but mental illness is a monster that will truly crush the very core of your being and make life agony 24/7. Now you come along and say, "But wait! It Gets Better™!" Except that's not true. What you mean to say is: "Wait, it might get better!" Except, depending on the mental illness, the chances of it getting better in any meaningfully amount of time can be zero. There are different levels of depression, for example, and many people who say they've been depressed haven't actually experienced depression at its worst. Depression is one of the worst "illnesses" that can happen to you (at its extreme), and it _will_ kill you if it's severe enough (by getting you to kill yourself). The type of agony associated with such a disease is unimaginable to someone who hasn't experienced it, and isn't even necessarily recallable to someone who experienced it in the past, but it is real, and you'd better respect the person who tells you that they want to kill themselves. In such situations, I believe that the "right answer" (if there is one), is the one the person chooses to make, whether it is to kill themselves, or not. The possibility of their situation improving is not in any way a justification for them to continue the very real and immediate torture that they're going through. At that point it's up to them whether there is anything left that they want to continue staying alive for or not. That's a decision that they have to make, and I respect it, regardless of what they choose. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=nick+vujicic https://www.google.com/search?q=nick+vujicic
    - jsmeaton 13y ago
      I feel we're approaching this topic in very different directions. Let me rephrase both arguments, and let me know if I've rephrased correctly or not. Your point is; how can you call suicide a bad or evil thing if it relieves pain and suffering in exactly the same way that the traditional definition of euthanasia does. My point is; suicide prevention isn't just about demonising suicide, the act, but about helping people not get to the point where they feel/know that suicide is the only option. Suicide/euthanasia is a tragedy. It means that we, as a society, have failed someone. Whether that is an inability to cure cancer, or cure depression. I'm not qualified or experienced enough to really comment on the rest, so I'll leave it at that.

itistoday2 13y ago

> Not all people who attempt suicide have the same mindset. I know people who have attempted suicide (one guy's face is disfigured due to a self-inflicted gun shot) and they do not even remotely suggest that suicide could possibly be anything but bad. Yes, that's a great point. There are a variety of viewpoints to consider, and it's important to understand the context in which they all occur. I'm sure the person you're referring to did not have that opinion a few moments before pulling the trigger, otherwise he wouldn't have done it. The surviving individual cannot be said to be the same one who pulled the trigger, in spite of appearances. His life went on, and in a radically different direction.

jsmeaton 13y ago
> I'm sure the person you're referring to did not have that opinion a few moments before pulling the trigger, otherwise he wouldn't have done it But I think that's exactly where suicide and euthanasia are different, where you claim they are synonyms. Euthanasia is for people that are suffering, in pain, and cannot get better. Suicide, in the context of depression and other mental illnesses, is for people that are suffering, in pain, and can get better. Not to suggest that the suffering or pain is any different, but that the available treatments are very much different. I would argue that your points of view are more akin to terrorism and/or sadist, because you're peddling the kind of information that leads these people to truly believe that they can't get better. And that's why a project, that the OP is attempting, is virtuous IMO. I agree with other commenters here that there are some very very important considerations though, and it should not just be released onto the world without very careful scrutiny, both legal and medical.
- itistoday2 13y ago
  > But I think that's exactly where suicide and euthanasia are different, where you claim they are synonyms. Euthanasia is for people that are suffering, in pain, and cannot get better. Suicide, in the context of depression and other mental illnesses, is for people that are suffering, in pain, and can get better. I'm sorry, but where did you find the Guidebook To Life that lays out the precise rules of what is and isn't an acceptable time for suicide? And what is the reason we should follow the advice in this book as opposed to some other book that says the exact opposite? Regarding mental illness, that is in fact some of the worst type of illness you can get (I personally feel it is the worst type). You can carry on just fine without an arm or a leg (or no arms and no legs![1]), but mental illness is a monster that will truly crush the very core of your being and make life agony 24/7. Now you come along and say, "But wait! It Gets Better™!" Except that's not true. What you mean to say is: "Wait, it might get better!" Except, depending on the mental illness, the chances of it getting better in any meaningfully amount of time can be zero. There are different levels of depression, for example, and many people who say they've been depressed haven't actually experienced depression at its worst. Depression is one of the worst "illnesses" that can happen to you (at its extreme), and it _will_ kill you if it's severe enough (by getting you to kill yourself). The type of agony associated with such a disease is unimaginable to someone who hasn't experienced it, and isn't even necessarily recallable to someone who experienced it in the past, but it is real, and you'd better respect the person who tells you that they want to kill themselves. In such situations, I believe that the "right answer" (if there is one), is the one the person chooses to make, whether it is to kill themselves, or not. The possibility of their situation improving is not in any way a justification for them to continue the very real and immediate torture that they're going through. At that point it's up to them whether there is anything left that they want to continue staying alive for or not. That's a decision that they have to make, and I respect it, regardless of what they choose. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=nick+vujicic https://www.google.com/search?q=nick+vujicic
  - jsmeaton 13y ago
    I feel we're approaching this topic in very different directions. Let me rephrase both arguments, and let me know if I've rephrased correctly or not. Your point is; how can you call suicide a bad or evil thing if it relieves pain and suffering in exactly the same way that the traditional definition of euthanasia does. My point is; suicide prevention isn't just about demonising suicide, the act, but about helping people not get to the point where they feel/know that suicide is the only option. Suicide/euthanasia is a tragedy. It means that we, as a society, have failed someone. Whether that is an inability to cure cancer, or cure depression. I'm not qualified or experienced enough to really comment on the rest, so I'll leave it at that.