5 ms·

It's a nice sentiment, but I'd guess most people looking for a job right now can't afford that sort of... principled stand. Job seeking is nearly always a posit

It's a nice sentiment, but I'd guess most people looking for a job right now can't afford that sort of... principled stand. Job seeking is nearly always a position of weakness.

raganwald 17y ago
If you are mixing money and principles, we have different definitions of the word "principle." To me a principle is something that is so important I am willing to make sacrifices and suffer indignities to protect it. It isn't a "nice-to-have," it's a non-negotiable. In fact, I would say that you don't know whether something is a principle or not until you are looking at having to sell your home to avoid foreclosure because you won't compromise it. JM2C on the word...
- zackattack 17y ago
  I agree. I also think the best point the author makes is that he'd be culturally incompatible with anyone who pulls this sort of nonsense anyway. I'm a big advocate of transparency for cooperation.
  - jrockway 17y ago
    It is the author that you are replying to.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- alex_c 17y ago
  I actually agree with the grandparent comment, while reading your essay I was thinking very much the same. You - and many people on HN, I suspect - have the luxury of turning down job offers you don't like, because you know you have other options. What happens when you DON'T have options? What happens when not only your house but your ability to support your kids is on the line, you've applied to hundreds of jobs with no responses, and this is the first solid lead? What happens when you're NOT a highly competent IT professional in a position of strength? I completely agree that the practice is wrong, but I don't think that "fine, don't hire me, I don't want to work there anyway" (with the implied "because I have choices") is the most constructive approach.
  - raganwald 17y ago
    I always had this attitude about certain things, even when I was much younger and had far fewer options. For example, although it is far less of an issue today, when I started in my career there was a lot more overt racism in play. I refused to work in places that had a racist culture, and in fact I did quit at least two jobs I can recall over this, and at that time quitting cost me serious money and security. Now I have kids and a mortgage, but let me look you (virtually) straight in the eye and tell you: No way am I ever going to tell them that I got down on my knees and sold my dignity as a human being "for their sake." That isn't a value I want to pass on to the next generation. My rant is definitely not constructive, I agree with you there. But it is passionate, and I am far more interested in persuading fellow hackers to start their own businesses or seek more enlightened employers than I am in persuading employers to change their ways.
  - mquander 17y ago
    I agree that your premise is important to consider, but I come to the opposite conclusion. I think that if you have the power to push back against unethical practices (because you have the good fortune to have other options available) then it's your moral responsibility to push back, since others are unable to do so.

It's a nice sentiment, but I'd guess most people looking for a job right now can't afford that sort of... principled stand. Job seeking is nearly always a position of weakness.

raganwald 17y ago

If you are mixing money and principles, we have different definitions of the word "principle." To me a principle is something that is so important I am willing to make sacrifices and suffer indignities to protect it. It isn't a "nice-to-have," it's a non-negotiable. In fact, I would say that you don't know whether something is a principle or not until you are looking at having to sell your home to avoid foreclosure because you won't compromise it. JM2C on the word...

zackattack 17y ago
I agree. I also think the best point the author makes is that he'd be culturally incompatible with anyone who pulls this sort of nonsense anyway. I'm a big advocate of transparency for cooperation.
- jrockway 17y ago
  It is the author that you are replying to.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
alex_c 17y ago
I actually agree with the grandparent comment, while reading your essay I was thinking very much the same. You - and many people on HN, I suspect - have the luxury of turning down job offers you don't like, because you know you have other options. What happens when you DON'T have options? What happens when not only your house but your ability to support your kids is on the line, you've applied to hundreds of jobs with no responses, and this is the first solid lead? What happens when you're NOT a highly competent IT professional in a position of strength? I completely agree that the practice is wrong, but I don't think that "fine, don't hire me, I don't want to work there anyway" (with the implied "because I have choices") is the most constructive approach.
- raganwald 17y ago
  I always had this attitude about certain things, even when I was much younger and had far fewer options. For example, although it is far less of an issue today, when I started in my career there was a lot more overt racism in play. I refused to work in places that had a racist culture, and in fact I did quit at least two jobs I can recall over this, and at that time quitting cost me serious money and security. Now I have kids and a mortgage, but let me look you (virtually) straight in the eye and tell you: No way am I ever going to tell them that I got down on my knees and sold my dignity as a human being "for their sake." That isn't a value I want to pass on to the next generation. My rant is definitely not constructive, I agree with you there. But it is passionate, and I am far more interested in persuading fellow hackers to start their own businesses or seek more enlightened employers than I am in persuading employers to change their ways.
- mquander 17y ago
  I agree that your premise is important to consider, but I come to the opposite conclusion. I think that if you have the power to push back against unethical practices (because you have the good fortune to have other options available) then it's your moral responsibility to push back, since others are unable to do so.