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You are working on something important, and I was glad to read (and upvote) a lot of the other comments you received, and especially the offers for pro-bono hel

You are working on something important, and I was glad to read (and upvote) a lot of the other comments you received, and especially the offers for pro-bono help. One comment below suggested that you read the literature (I presume that means the literature about suicide prevention) and I would second that advice. To expand that advice a bit, I'll note that Martin E. P. Seligman and some other psychologists who have studied depression and suicide think that the "self esteem" movement that took over United States schools after I graduated from high school may have actually INCREASED risk of suicide in the United States--certainly the rates of both attempted and completed suicide, and the rate of diagnosed youth depression, went up over the years when those school programs were put in place. In other words, don't just rely on intuition about what would be helpful, but look into actual research. Seligman's books Learned Optimism[1] and The Optimistic Child[2] are both helpful, although there should be some even newer research out by now. Reading those books may help you deal with the challenges of working on this interesting project while keeping up with your school work. Best wishes. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Learned-Optimism-Change-Your-Mind/dp/1400078393 http://www.amazon.com/Learned-Optimism-Change-Your-Mind/dp/1... [2] http://www.amazon.com/The-Optimistic-Child-Depression-Resilience/dp/0618918094/ http://www.amazon.com/The-Optimistic-Child-Depression-Resili...

Xeoncross 13y ago
"the "self esteem" movement that took over United States schools after I graduated from high school may have actually INCREASED risk of suicide in the United States" Yes, "self esteem" is again putting the individual up directly in front of themselves to examine and focus on which only brings existing problems into sharp center-focus. Depression and Pride both have a common denominator in too much self-absorption.
- flippmoke 13y ago
  This is one of the most common misconceptions in my opinion of depression. Depression is not caused by self absorption. Depression is not vanity, imagine someone who has been rejected by a loved one. A depressed person might think, "I was never good enough for them," while a person who is not depressed might think, "I learned a lot and will do better next time." Viewing them as selfish or self absorbed is completely wrong. Do you think the depressed person wants to feel like they are not good enough? Is non depressed person self absorbed for their thinking?
  - wdewind 13y ago
    > "I was never good enough for them." > "I learned a lot and will do better next time." Both of those are pretty self-absorbed (which is not the same as vane). In both scenarios you are seen as the person responsible, even though the rejection came from someone else.
    - flippmoke 13y ago
      What if our theoretical person is responsible? Everyone is going to view any event like this with some sort of "self-absorbed" (I disagree with your definition of self absorbed here, but lets continue) response because they had some part in it (by your definition). The difference between a Depressed person and a non depressed person's response is the self deprecating thoughts. "Self Absorbed" has nothing to do with it.
superuser2 13y ago
I'm curious as to what you are saying here. Poor self esteem is healthier? People shouldn't have self esteem, positive or negative? Or they should, but we should ignore it?
- rjbwork 13y ago
  I think he's saying that falsely implanted self-esteen, a la "everyones a unique special winner!", is a problem. When everyone is told over and over again while growing up that they are great and their self-esteem is artificially inflated, they inevitably experience some amount of cognitive dissonance and maybe even depression at the realization somewhere down the road that they're probably not as unique, special, talented, or great as they were told they were as a kid. This could set someone up for any number of positive or negative effects, emotions, or actions, from long term depression or suicidal feelings to a burning desire to really improve themselves to actually become that unique and talented person they were told they are.
  - dspeyer 13y ago
    > I think he's saying that falsely implanted self-esteen, a la "everyones a unique special winner!", is a problem. I certainly hated that growing up. It was years before I could believe I had done anything right, because people would say the same things either way. But I think tokenadult was actually proposing something else: not focusing on oneself so much. Much like CS Lewis's concept of humility: "could create the greatest cathedral in the world, know it is the best, and rejoice in the fact that it is the most wondrous of all cathedrals; without being any more or less glad that he created it than he would be if someone else had created the cathedral." Or to take another CS Lewis quote: "And every state of mind, left to itself, every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of its own mind - is, in the end, Hell. But Heaven is not a state of mind. Heaven is reality itself." Focusing on self-esteem instead of the goal or substance at hand is shutting a creature within the dungeon of its own mind. That really is a great phrase for it.
    - rjbwork 13y ago
      I don't really have a response to this other than to say that I like what you wrote and what CS Lewis wrote. Thanks for telling us about it. It is truly or relevant to the obsession over self-esteem today.
itistoday2 13y ago
I second the advice to familiarize yourself with the literature, and would like to add a strong word of caution at the same time. A disclaimer: I speak out of personal experience with this topic, and I did not read most of the comments that you've already received (sorry, wish I had the time). So here's my word of caution: You must be aware that you are intentionally brainwashing yourself into a biased worldview by reading all of these books on suicide prevention. Every book on suicide prevention has the premise that suicide is "bad", after all, that is why the author wrote it, and that is what they are trying to prevent. It does not matter a lick how scientific their "data points are", if the premise that they are starting out with is based on a biased point of view. You will join their ranks if you don't keep this in mind. Therefore, in addition to all of the literature on suicide prevention that you read, I strongly recommend reading literature that supports suicide. Books that support suicide use a different word, but it is the same thing. These books employ the same linguistic trick that books attempting to prevent suicide use: they use words. Words have unspoken meaning associated with them, that only exists ephemerally in the culture in which they are used. You may or may not find this hidden meaning in dictionaries. These two words have in fact the exact same meaning, when it comes to the end act. Their meaning only slightly diverges when you take the cultural connotation and circumstances surrounding their use. Nevertheless, they really should be treated (by you) as synonyms, because the reasons that the people you are trying to prevent from killing themselves are usually the same in each case. Word #1: Suicide - the action of killing oneself intentionally: - a course of action that is disastrously damaging to oneself or one's own interests Word #2: Euthanasia - the painless killing of a patient suffering from an incurable and painful disease or in an irreversible coma. The practice is illegal in most countries. For your project, I will throw a devil's advocate accusation at you, and call you, and anyone in this thread who supports your cause, a terrorist and/or sadist. I will accuse you of in fact not helping people, but misguidedly (due to complete and utter ignorance on your part) torturing people by encouraging them to experience more suffering. Further, I will claim that unless you can see this point of view, your project will be an utter failure, and will not achieve any success beyond what existing measures have achieved. To understand suicide, you have to understand wanting to kill yourself, and you cannot understand this intellectually, you have to have experienced it yourself (or have a great "emotional imagination", aka ability to empathize). How can you help anyone with a concept that you have no understanding of yourself? That is the road to failure. Suicide is a very rational reaction to life. I've seen people call those who want to kill themselves "selfish", when it's clear that it is the other person who is selfish, and wants the person to stick around and suffer, only to spare themselves suffering. So, to start you off, you may want to compliment your reading by familiarizing yourself with real suicide notes, before you even think about writing a single line of code. Here are some I found via some googling (I cannot vouch for their authenticity though): http://theholydark.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/some-painfully-edifying-reading-suicide-notes/ http://theholydark.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/some-painfully-e... (references this page that is no longer online: https://web.archive.org/web/20130112214925/http://www.well.com/~art/suicidenotes.html https://web.archive.org/web/20130112214925/http://www.well.c... )

Xeoncross 13y ago

"the "self esteem" movement that took over United States schools after I graduated from high school may have actually INCREASED risk of suicide in the United States" Yes, "self esteem" is again putting the individual up directly in front of themselves to examine and focus on which only brings existing problems into sharp center-focus. Depression and Pride both have a common denominator in too much self-absorption.

flippmoke 13y ago
This is one of the most common misconceptions in my opinion of depression. Depression is not caused by self absorption. Depression is not vanity, imagine someone who has been rejected by a loved one. A depressed person might think, "I was never good enough for them," while a person who is not depressed might think, "I learned a lot and will do better next time." Viewing them as selfish or self absorbed is completely wrong. Do you think the depressed person wants to feel like they are not good enough? Is non depressed person self absorbed for their thinking?
- wdewind 13y ago
  > "I was never good enough for them." > "I learned a lot and will do better next time." Both of those are pretty self-absorbed (which is not the same as vane). In both scenarios you are seen as the person responsible, even though the rejection came from someone else.
  - flippmoke 13y ago
    What if our theoretical person is responsible? Everyone is going to view any event like this with some sort of "self-absorbed" (I disagree with your definition of self absorbed here, but lets continue) response because they had some part in it (by your definition). The difference between a Depressed person and a non depressed person's response is the self deprecating thoughts. "Self Absorbed" has nothing to do with it.

superuser2 13y ago

I'm curious as to what you are saying here. Poor self esteem is healthier? People shouldn't have self esteem, positive or negative? Or they should, but we should ignore it?

rjbwork 13y ago
I think he's saying that falsely implanted self-esteen, a la "everyones a unique special winner!", is a problem. When everyone is told over and over again while growing up that they are great and their self-esteem is artificially inflated, they inevitably experience some amount of cognitive dissonance and maybe even depression at the realization somewhere down the road that they're probably not as unique, special, talented, or great as they were told they were as a kid. This could set someone up for any number of positive or negative effects, emotions, or actions, from long term depression or suicidal feelings to a burning desire to really improve themselves to actually become that unique and talented person they were told they are.
- dspeyer 13y ago
  > I think he's saying that falsely implanted self-esteen, a la "everyones a unique special winner!", is a problem. I certainly hated that growing up. It was years before I could believe I had done anything right, because people would say the same things either way. But I think tokenadult was actually proposing something else: not focusing on oneself so much. Much like CS Lewis's concept of humility: "could create the greatest cathedral in the world, know it is the best, and rejoice in the fact that it is the most wondrous of all cathedrals; without being any more or less glad that he created it than he would be if someone else had created the cathedral." Or to take another CS Lewis quote: "And every state of mind, left to itself, every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of its own mind - is, in the end, Hell. But Heaven is not a state of mind. Heaven is reality itself." Focusing on self-esteem instead of the goal or substance at hand is shutting a creature within the dungeon of its own mind. That really is a great phrase for it.
  - rjbwork 13y ago
    I don't really have a response to this other than to say that I like what you wrote and what CS Lewis wrote. Thanks for telling us about it. It is truly or relevant to the obsession over self-esteem today.

itistoday2 13y ago

I second the advice to familiarize yourself with the literature, and would like to add a strong word of caution at the same time. A disclaimer: I speak out of personal experience with this topic, and I did not read most of the comments that you've already received (sorry, wish I had the time). So here's my word of caution: You must be aware that you are intentionally brainwashing yourself into a biased worldview by reading all of these books on suicide prevention. Every book on suicide prevention has the premise that suicide is "bad", after all, that is why the author wrote it, and that is what they are trying to prevent. It does not matter a lick how scientific their "data points are", if the premise that they are starting out with is based on a biased point of view. You will join their ranks if you don't keep this in mind. Therefore, in addition to all of the literature on suicide prevention that you read, I strongly recommend reading literature that supports suicide. Books that support suicide use a different word, but it is the same thing. These books employ the same linguistic trick that books attempting to prevent suicide use: they use words. Words have unspoken meaning associated with them, that only exists ephemerally in the culture in which they are used. You may or may not find this hidden meaning in dictionaries. These two words have in fact the exact same meaning, when it comes to the end act. Their meaning only slightly diverges when you take the cultural connotation and circumstances surrounding their use. Nevertheless, they really should be treated (by you) as synonyms, because the reasons that the people you are trying to prevent from killing themselves are usually the same in each case. Word #1: Suicide - the action of killing oneself intentionally: - a course of action that is disastrously damaging to oneself or one's own interests Word #2: Euthanasia - the painless killing of a patient suffering from an incurable and painful disease or in an irreversible coma. The practice is illegal in most countries. For your project, I will throw a devil's advocate accusation at you, and call you, and anyone in this thread who supports your cause, a terrorist and/or sadist. I will accuse you of in fact not helping people, but misguidedly (due to complete and utter ignorance on your part) torturing people by encouraging them to experience more suffering. Further, I will claim that unless you can see this point of view, your project will be an utter failure, and will not achieve any success beyond what existing measures have achieved. To understand suicide, you have to understand wanting to kill yourself, and you cannot understand this intellectually, you have to have experienced it yourself (or have a great "emotional imagination", aka ability to empathize). How can you help anyone with a concept that you have no understanding of yourself? That is the road to failure. Suicide is a very rational reaction to life. I've seen people call those who want to kill themselves "selfish", when it's clear that it is the other person who is selfish, and wants the person to stick around and suffer, only to spare themselves suffering. So, to start you off, you may want to compliment your reading by familiarizing yourself with real suicide notes, before you even think about writing a single line of code. Here are some I found via some googling (I cannot vouch for their authenticity though): http://theholydark.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/some-painfully-edifying-reading-suicide-notes/ http://theholydark.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/some-painfully-e... (references this page that is no longer online: https://web.archive.org/web/20130112214925/http://www.well.com/~art/suicidenotes.html https://web.archive.org/web/20130112214925/http://www.well.c... )