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The actual quote is: "You can't beat politics with new technology all the time." This is very different from the current HN headline! After all, sometimes tech

by tikhonj 13y ago

The actual quote is: "You can't beat politics with new technology all the time." This is very different from the current HN headline! After all, sometimes technology changes everything so much politics can do little more than try to catch up. People like to say "you can't solve social problems with technology". It's a statement that's true enough of the time to be common wisdom but not enough to be a natural law. Sometimes technology does help with social problems. This isn't to say that politics is unimportant. It is still central. But I think dismissing technological solutions out of hand is also shortsighted. I particularly think this of BitCoin, which feels like a monumental change. BitCoin could, ideally, liberate transactions between individuals and significantly reduce barriers for anything from microtransactions to donating to fringe political causes. It certainly won't solve all our problems, it might even solve none, but I think it'll definitely make for a better world. I really liked Balaji Srinivasan's speech on "Voice and Exit". BitCoin was an example of "exiting" the existing financial system and providing an alternate means of conducting transactions. Viewing it as such, just using and supporting BitCoin is inevitably a political action, limiting the absolute power of the government. To me, this makes BitCoin one of the technologies to really watch for future social change.

elemeno 13y ago
If we're going to be accurate, it's - "You can't beat politics with new technology all the time. Sometimes you have to actually make sure that politics are in line with what people want. A lot of people are giving up on politics and thinking they can solve issues with technology. These kind of arrogant behaviours towards the rest of the society are a bit disgusting," - which isn't so far from the "You can't beat politics with technology" sentiment, and retains the color of the statement. Ultimately, technology can empower us to do amazing things, but to achieve it's full potential we've also got to be involved in society as a whole and push to bring the various ideas we believe in into the public's sight. Technology can be a powerful embodiment of a set of ideas such as free-culture, privacy, a decentralized financial system, or what have you. Making people take interest in those ideas and bringing the debate outside the technology sphere can only lead to a better outcome for all.
- wuliwong 13y ago
  This seems silly to dig this deeply into this text but in what you quoted he clearly is also stating that it is possible to 'beat politics with technology'. The color of his statements are not that politics always "wins". Whatever "wins" means in this scenario.
rgrieselhuber 13y ago
I think you just proved Sunde's point.
wes-exp 13y ago
I think [BitCoin will] definitely make for a better world Bitcoin is inherently deflationary, which would be economically disastrous if it supplanted the dollar. Granted, I think bitcoin supplanting the dollar is unlikely, but it does make me question how beneficial bitcoin really is. On top of that, bitcoin erodes transaction privacy. Is this really a step forward?
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  Bitcoin doesn't have to become the currency of daily use to change the world. In fact, to my knowledge, it would function better as a Bretton-Woods reserve currency in the style of gold or the "bancor". A healthy economy would mean most transactions take place in unpegged fiat currencies, but financial shenanigans would result in people hedging into Bitcoin.
- wuliwong 13y ago
  There are a lot of economists that would argue that deflationary spirals don't actually occur, mainly Chicago and Austrian School economists.
  - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
    In which case those economists are simply wrong.
    - zanny 13y ago
      Seriously, anyone who thinks deflation is good is either short sighted or stupid. Fundamentally, if my money is worth more tomorrow, I won't spend it today, and you halt the entire economic system like that. I like peercoin, which is a bitcoin that can maintain wallets without the full block chain, do less expensive proof of work problems when the network is computationally competitive enough, and has a fixed inflation rate of 1%. The only improvement I'd like to see is a currency that uses a coin generation algorithm based off recent monetary velocity, so that if exchange slows the inflation rate increases to stimulate more exchange, and if a lot of money is changing hands the inflation rate is slowed, with a targeted turnover ratio of the entire economy that is whatever is most economically healthy, it would require research.
praxeologist 13y ago
I liked Balaji's speech but I don't see his example with the diagram of a bunch of people shouting "A" in one box then if you don't like that moving to go shout "B" in another box as really being an exit. What if I don't want to live in a world dominated by legal monopolies who draw arbitrary lines based on military conquest? Bitcoin can be a real exit because it is a paradigm shift. One dimensional views of politics where maybe A or B wins and we define the whole society by that isn't. I don't think that participating in electoral politics is an effective means in reaching my desired ends. I'm not lazy Mr. Sunde, I'm smart. I know that I have a greater chance of dying in a car wreck on the way to the polling station than my single vote changing an election. I know that once the popularity contest is over, the fundamentally flawed incentive structure of "democratic" systems will take over and the political elite/lobbyists will be in charge again. I think we need to start viewing law and political ideology as "technologies" themselves rather than something separate and just accepting the status quo. One parliament member who is just going to get outvoted by the majority who tow the line with the IP monopoly lobby is nothing to get excited about. I want to see people demand zones for political/legal/economic experimentation like was suggested recently by Larry Page. Maybe you and I don't agree on the best way to do things, but shouldn't people have a right to innovate and try new systems? True democracy is the ability to secede down to the level of the individual.
- williamcotton 13y ago
  > I don't think that participating in electoral politics is an effective means in reaching my desired ends. And then I read from Peter Thiel: > Most importantly, I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible. And then I think that there are waaaay too many people in the tech industry who have gone completely out of their minds. The anti-democratic rhetoric seems to be growing louder and it is starting to get pretty worrisome.
  - praxeologist 13y ago
    Why are you worried? Don't you think it is even possible that some other form of societal organization will upend democratic majoritarianism? Have you actually read any books on the subject like Caplan's The Myth of the Rational Voter or Hoppe's Democracy: The God that Failed? There's real arguments behind being anti-democracy, so rather than just complaining about me like a bother, insta-downvoting, and declaring it "simply wrong", maybe you should tackle the issue in a substantive way. It's very "anti-hacker" to just accept democracy as the pinnacle of perfection and think it will last forever.
walshemj 13y ago
Yeah its not like we have to have a man with a red flag walking in front of our cars any more. Technology does change society and politics the widespread introduction of the bicycle is supposed to have reduced the instance in inbreeding as you could more easily go courting in a nearby village.

by tikhonj 13y ago

elemeno 13y ago

If we're going to be accurate, it's - "You can't beat politics with new technology all the time. Sometimes you have to actually make sure that politics are in line with what people want. A lot of people are giving up on politics and thinking they can solve issues with technology. These kind of arrogant behaviours towards the rest of the society are a bit disgusting," - which isn't so far from the "You can't beat politics with technology" sentiment, and retains the color of the statement. Ultimately, technology can empower us to do amazing things, but to achieve it's full potential we've also got to be involved in society as a whole and push to bring the various ideas we believe in into the public's sight. Technology can be a powerful embodiment of a set of ideas such as free-culture, privacy, a decentralized financial system, or what have you. Making people take interest in those ideas and bringing the debate outside the technology sphere can only lead to a better outcome for all.

wuliwong 13y ago
This seems silly to dig this deeply into this text but in what you quoted he clearly is also stating that it is possible to 'beat politics with technology'. The color of his statements are not that politics always "wins". Whatever "wins" means in this scenario.

rgrieselhuber 13y ago

I think you just proved Sunde's point.

wes-exp 13y ago

I think [BitCoin will] definitely make for a better world Bitcoin is inherently deflationary, which would be economically disastrous if it supplanted the dollar. Granted, I think bitcoin supplanting the dollar is unlikely, but it does make me question how beneficial bitcoin really is. On top of that, bitcoin erodes transaction privacy. Is this really a step forward?

eli_gottlieb 13y ago
Bitcoin doesn't have to become the currency of daily use to change the world. In fact, to my knowledge, it would function better as a Bretton-Woods reserve currency in the style of gold or the "bancor". A healthy economy would mean most transactions take place in unpegged fiat currencies, but financial shenanigans would result in people hedging into Bitcoin.
wuliwong 13y ago
There are a lot of economists that would argue that deflationary spirals don't actually occur, mainly Chicago and Austrian School economists.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  In which case those economists are simply wrong.
  - zanny 13y ago
    Seriously, anyone who thinks deflation is good is either short sighted or stupid. Fundamentally, if my money is worth more tomorrow, I won't spend it today, and you halt the entire economic system like that. I like peercoin, which is a bitcoin that can maintain wallets without the full block chain, do less expensive proof of work problems when the network is computationally competitive enough, and has a fixed inflation rate of 1%. The only improvement I'd like to see is a currency that uses a coin generation algorithm based off recent monetary velocity, so that if exchange slows the inflation rate increases to stimulate more exchange, and if a lot of money is changing hands the inflation rate is slowed, with a targeted turnover ratio of the entire economy that is whatever is most economically healthy, it would require research.

praxeologist 13y ago

I liked Balaji's speech but I don't see his example with the diagram of a bunch of people shouting "A" in one box then if you don't like that moving to go shout "B" in another box as really being an exit. What if I don't want to live in a world dominated by legal monopolies who draw arbitrary lines based on military conquest? Bitcoin can be a real exit because it is a paradigm shift. One dimensional views of politics where maybe A or B wins and we define the whole society by that isn't. I don't think that participating in electoral politics is an effective means in reaching my desired ends. I'm not lazy Mr. Sunde, I'm smart. I know that I have a greater chance of dying in a car wreck on the way to the polling station than my single vote changing an election. I know that once the popularity contest is over, the fundamentally flawed incentive structure of "democratic" systems will take over and the political elite/lobbyists will be in charge again. I think we need to start viewing law and political ideology as "technologies" themselves rather than something separate and just accepting the status quo. One parliament member who is just going to get outvoted by the majority who tow the line with the IP monopoly lobby is nothing to get excited about. I want to see people demand zones for political/legal/economic experimentation like was suggested recently by Larry Page. Maybe you and I don't agree on the best way to do things, but shouldn't people have a right to innovate and try new systems? True democracy is the ability to secede down to the level of the individual.

williamcotton 13y ago
> I don't think that participating in electoral politics is an effective means in reaching my desired ends. And then I read from Peter Thiel: > Most importantly, I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible. And then I think that there are waaaay too many people in the tech industry who have gone completely out of their minds. The anti-democratic rhetoric seems to be growing louder and it is starting to get pretty worrisome.
- praxeologist 13y ago
  Why are you worried? Don't you think it is even possible that some other form of societal organization will upend democratic majoritarianism? Have you actually read any books on the subject like Caplan's The Myth of the Rational Voter or Hoppe's Democracy: The God that Failed? There's real arguments behind being anti-democracy, so rather than just complaining about me like a bother, insta-downvoting, and declaring it "simply wrong", maybe you should tackle the issue in a substantive way. It's very "anti-hacker" to just accept democracy as the pinnacle of perfection and think it will last forever.

walshemj 13y ago

Yeah its not like we have to have a man with a red flag walking in front of our cars any more. Technology does change society and politics the widespread introduction of the bicycle is supposed to have reduced the instance in inbreeding as you could more easily go courting in a nearby village.