5 ms·

Here's an interesting hypothetical. Step 1: User A purchases a shrinkwrapped DVD with excellent packaging from a counterfeiter in China. Step 2: User A sell

by Lazare 13y ago

Here's an interesting hypothetical. Step 1: User A purchases a shrinkwrapped DVD with excellent packaging from a counterfeiter in China. Step 2: User A sells the DVD to an FBA merchant, who forwards it on to Amazon. Step 3: User B buys the DVD from Amazon; due to commingling they get the counterfeit DVD. Before they can open it they get hit by a bus. Step 4: User B's executors sell the DVD back to an FBA merchant, who forwards it on to Amazon without a second thought (since it's a shrinkwrapped DVD straight out of Amazon's warehouses. Step 5: User C purchases the DVD from the FBA merchant, opens it, and finds its counterfeit. In short, the FBA/commingling stuff means that merchandise you buy directly from Amazon can be untrusted. In turn that means that, as an FBA merchant, even merchandise that came directly from Amazon can be untrusted. Any shrinkwrapped DVD that has passed through an Amazon fulfillment warehouse is actually of entirely unknown provenance; it could have been purchased at a stall in Shanghai for all you know. And if your business relies on never selling a counterfeit DVD, then that means nothing you buy or sell can ever touch an Amazon warehouse. I doubt this is a real concern (this is the first I've heard of any issues with counterfeiting and FBA), but it's still an interesting structural flaw. Given Amazon's volume, they're probably shipping out multiple counterfeit DVDs right now, under their own shipping label as well as that of various FBA merchants. Fascinating.

thaumasiotes 13y ago
> Any shrinkwrapped DVD that has passed through an Amazon fulfillment warehouse is actually of entirely unknown provenance; it could have been purchased at a stall in Shanghai for all you know. Not to disagree, but as someone who lives in Shanghai and occasionally buys pirated DVDs, the quality (for a western show) is generally at least as high as you'd expect of official merchandise. I got all of Futurama on many fewer discs than the official stuff uses, at no visible hit to quality. I find it unlikely that a user, as opposed to a media company running stings, would ever complain.
- evan_ 13y ago
  If I pay $80 or whatever for a DVD box set and I suspect it's counterfeit you'd better believe I'm going to complain about it. I paid for a real item.
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    "Real"? "Counterfeit" software isn't like counterfeit hardware. It's exactly the same thing, but with less legitimacy. Counterfeit medicine might poison you, or at best be biologically inactive. Counterfeit videos are no different from "real" videos except in the fee paid to the copyright holder. How does that affect you?
    - gamegoblin 13y ago
      Having less legitimacy makes it a different thing to most people. The legality and legitimacy of an item, while social constructs, are important to many people and are worth value to many people.
      - thaumasiotes 13y ago
        I believe in most people's eyes, legitimacy makes a difference to them because they believe it's relevant to quality. For example, a Sears tool is superior to a no-brand knockoff because the quality of Sears' manufacture is higher. That general idea is the foundational concept behind trademark law. I'm trying to point out that the concept doesn't apply to software (and in this sense, digital video files are "software"). The majority of people care about the legitimacy of software only because they don't realize that it has no impact on quality, that software is completely unlike physical objects in that regard. Now, there are counterexamples in the world; a Chinese producer of sunflower (I think) seeds became massively successful by taking the innovative step of branding his product ("Idiot Seeds") instead of selling it as the commodity "sunflower seeds". But I don't think that's the main force driving fear of bootleg DVDs.
        gamegoblin 13y ago
        I understand where you are coming from, now. I am unsure of the reason why the person you responded to wanted a "real" DVD, so we'll have to see if they respond to you. I am also not very well versed on DVD ripping techniques. If you are: Are they 100% lossless?
- rallison 13y ago
  To disagree, no. the quality (for a western show) is generally at least as high as you'd expect of official merchandise I got all of Futurama on many fewer discs than the official stuff uses, at no visible hit to quality If you got Futurama on many fewer discs than the official edition, it is extremely likely that the quality was not "at least as high as you'd expect of official merchandise." You may not have noticed it, in your viewing scenario, but it is almost guaranteed that your copies were compressed at a much higher level of compression loss. That, and the physical media itself is of unknown quality. As a user, I would complain. Loudly.
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    Higher level of compression, of course. Why higher level of loss? There are various compression technologies. Some are better and worse, according to your purpose. My viewing scenario was a 16:10 17" screen (I believe 1440x9XX) and Bose headphones. That beats the resolution expectations of broadcast TV, and definitively crushes the audio expectations. Full disclosure: I've watched Futurama in the form of torrented episodes （quality varies), chinese bootleg DVDs (high quality), and official DVDs (also high quality). May I ask about your experience with Chinese DVDs?
    - rallison 13y ago
      I hesitate to respond, only because this is becoming somewhat off-topic to the article itself. That said, I was assuming the scenario of a counterfeit DVD that would play on any standard DVD player. Sure, there are more efficient compression algorithms now, but most aren't supported as standard on every DVD player out there. The base DVD specification is rather limited in codec support. Those Futurama counterfeits - which compression algorithm are they using? Will they play on all standard dvd players?
      - thaumasiotes 13y ago
        Sadly, I don't know the answer to this; even the impeccably-licensed official translated Disney movies I've bought don't tend to work in US DVD players (region coded, I guess), so I never try. I play DVDs via computer (for one thing, that means I don't have to buy a DVD player in China; I already have computers). I don't have the discs with me, so it's impossible to check. :( I can think of a couple scenarios -- (a) my error, it's actually the same number of discs, but packed into one box instead of four boxes; (b) they're nonstandard, but still recognized as DVDs by VLC; (c) (highly speculative) something about the limited palette of cartoons makes them more susceptible to compression, and that was exploited. For what it's worth, the reason I included the qualifier "(for a western show)" is that I once bought a set of bootleg DVDs for a chinese TV show, and they were compressed to the point where I found them unwatchable. They still played through VLC; my best guess is that DVD-making software was used on ripped, heavily-compressed video files. It is entirely possible that something similar was done for my Futurama discs, although no compression was visible in that case.
- jrs99 13y ago
  either you're not seeing everything, and you're missing some details when you examine the products, or the original copy sucked in the first place. I can buy an original cd or blu ray and the case and the disc and everything are extremely cheap. Just like you used to be able to get OReilly books in good quality ink and one day the new newsprint paper was yellowing right there on the Barnes and Noble shelves and the ink had a strange gloss to it. Some original products simply suck and that's why a counterfeit can get close.
malandrew 13y ago
Everyone using the FBA program that is reading these comments should immediately start paying to have stickers printed for their FBA account and start placing those stickers on their merchandise. It will take a while before all your current inventory turns over and you only have stickered items sitting in Amazon's warehouse, but every single item you start guaranteeing with some sort of seal is one less chance of getting caught holding the hot potato, so to speak. Amazon should in fact change their FBA policy so that they label the provenance of every FBA item that enters their warehouse. This situation as it stands now threatens to hurt the entire FBA program. They want to keep good sellers and identify the wrongdoers, otherwise they are allowing this structural flaw to persist. Not doing anything to mitigate it now that this seller has publicly brought this to light probably opens them up to liability for negligence in future cases.
- mcherm 13y ago
  > put stickers on your stuff Wow... that's a really good, low-tech solution.
rajivm 13y ago
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=200243180 http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=... "Your item must be a non-media product (you cannot send in books, CDs, VHS or DVDs without stickers)." It seems Amazon actually no longer allows co-mingling of media products.
- Tyrannosaurs 13y ago
  That'll stop a lot of the problem but not all. A friend's company have massive counterfeit problems with Beats by Dre headphones. In their case it's people buying genuine product from them, buying cheap (but cosmetically good) copies, and returning the copy (saying it's the original) for a refund. Testing every return isn't something most companies do so it had become a major issue by the time they'd worked out what was happening. No reason why the same cosmetically convincing product couldn't screw up FBA co-mingling.
- Lazare 13y ago
  I did some digging, and it seems that the rules for FBA are highly variable for different vendors. Larger vendors, or vendors who have been part of the FBA program for a long time, seem to still be able to comingle, but there's a lot of confusion about it. No one quite seems sure if it's something that only old vendors get (grand-fathered in from back when it was a standard part of FBA) or something that large/trustworthy vendors get (offered on a case-by-case basis). It might even be both. As best as I can tell, it seems that commingling is happening today, and may account for the bulk of FBA transactions (due to a few very large/old vendors still doing it), but the overwhelming majority of FBA vendors cannot commingle, many have no idea that commingling even exists, and if you signed up today you would not be able to commingle.

by Lazare 13y ago

thaumasiotes 13y ago

> Any shrinkwrapped DVD that has passed through an Amazon fulfillment warehouse is actually of entirely unknown provenance; it could have been purchased at a stall in Shanghai for all you know. Not to disagree, but as someone who lives in Shanghai and occasionally buys pirated DVDs, the quality (for a western show) is generally at least as high as you'd expect of official merchandise. I got all of Futurama on many fewer discs than the official stuff uses, at no visible hit to quality. I find it unlikely that a user, as opposed to a media company running stings, would ever complain.

evan_ 13y ago
If I pay $80 or whatever for a DVD box set and I suspect it's counterfeit you'd better believe I'm going to complain about it. I paid for a real item.
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  "Real"? "Counterfeit" software isn't like counterfeit hardware. It's exactly the same thing, but with less legitimacy. Counterfeit medicine might poison you, or at best be biologically inactive. Counterfeit videos are no different from "real" videos except in the fee paid to the copyright holder. How does that affect you?
  - gamegoblin 13y ago
    Having less legitimacy makes it a different thing to most people. The legality and legitimacy of an item, while social constructs, are important to many people and are worth value to many people.
    - thaumasiotes 13y ago
      I believe in most people's eyes, legitimacy makes a difference to them because they believe it's relevant to quality. For example, a Sears tool is superior to a no-brand knockoff because the quality of Sears' manufacture is higher. That general idea is the foundational concept behind trademark law. I'm trying to point out that the concept doesn't apply to software (and in this sense, digital video files are "software"). The majority of people care about the legitimacy of software only because they don't realize that it has no impact on quality, that software is completely unlike physical objects in that regard. Now, there are counterexamples in the world; a Chinese producer of sunflower (I think) seeds became massively successful by taking the innovative step of branding his product ("Idiot Seeds") instead of selling it as the commodity "sunflower seeds". But I don't think that's the main force driving fear of bootleg DVDs.
      - gamegoblin 13y ago
        I understand where you are coming from, now. I am unsure of the reason why the person you responded to wanted a "real" DVD, so we'll have to see if they respond to you. I am also not very well versed on DVD ripping techniques. If you are: Are they 100% lossless?
rallison 13y ago
To disagree, no. the quality (for a western show) is generally at least as high as you'd expect of official merchandise I got all of Futurama on many fewer discs than the official stuff uses, at no visible hit to quality If you got Futurama on many fewer discs than the official edition, it is extremely likely that the quality was not "at least as high as you'd expect of official merchandise." You may not have noticed it, in your viewing scenario, but it is almost guaranteed that your copies were compressed at a much higher level of compression loss. That, and the physical media itself is of unknown quality. As a user, I would complain. Loudly.
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  Higher level of compression, of course. Why higher level of loss? There are various compression technologies. Some are better and worse, according to your purpose. My viewing scenario was a 16:10 17" screen (I believe 1440x9XX) and Bose headphones. That beats the resolution expectations of broadcast TV, and definitively crushes the audio expectations. Full disclosure: I've watched Futurama in the form of torrented episodes （quality varies), chinese bootleg DVDs (high quality), and official DVDs (also high quality). May I ask about your experience with Chinese DVDs?
  - rallison 13y ago
    I hesitate to respond, only because this is becoming somewhat off-topic to the article itself. That said, I was assuming the scenario of a counterfeit DVD that would play on any standard DVD player. Sure, there are more efficient compression algorithms now, but most aren't supported as standard on every DVD player out there. The base DVD specification is rather limited in codec support. Those Futurama counterfeits - which compression algorithm are they using? Will they play on all standard dvd players?
    - thaumasiotes 13y ago
      Sadly, I don't know the answer to this; even the impeccably-licensed official translated Disney movies I've bought don't tend to work in US DVD players (region coded, I guess), so I never try. I play DVDs via computer (for one thing, that means I don't have to buy a DVD player in China; I already have computers). I don't have the discs with me, so it's impossible to check. :( I can think of a couple scenarios -- (a) my error, it's actually the same number of discs, but packed into one box instead of four boxes; (b) they're nonstandard, but still recognized as DVDs by VLC; (c) (highly speculative) something about the limited palette of cartoons makes them more susceptible to compression, and that was exploited. For what it's worth, the reason I included the qualifier "(for a western show)" is that I once bought a set of bootleg DVDs for a chinese TV show, and they were compressed to the point where I found them unwatchable. They still played through VLC; my best guess is that DVD-making software was used on ripped, heavily-compressed video files. It is entirely possible that something similar was done for my Futurama discs, although no compression was visible in that case.
jrs99 13y ago
either you're not seeing everything, and you're missing some details when you examine the products, or the original copy sucked in the first place. I can buy an original cd or blu ray and the case and the disc and everything are extremely cheap. Just like you used to be able to get OReilly books in good quality ink and one day the new newsprint paper was yellowing right there on the Barnes and Noble shelves and the ink had a strange gloss to it. Some original products simply suck and that's why a counterfeit can get close.

malandrew 13y ago

Everyone using the FBA program that is reading these comments should immediately start paying to have stickers printed for their FBA account and start placing those stickers on their merchandise. It will take a while before all your current inventory turns over and you only have stickered items sitting in Amazon's warehouse, but every single item you start guaranteeing with some sort of seal is one less chance of getting caught holding the hot potato, so to speak. Amazon should in fact change their FBA policy so that they label the provenance of every FBA item that enters their warehouse. This situation as it stands now threatens to hurt the entire FBA program. They want to keep good sellers and identify the wrongdoers, otherwise they are allowing this structural flaw to persist. Not doing anything to mitigate it now that this seller has publicly brought this to light probably opens them up to liability for negligence in future cases.

mcherm 13y ago
> put stickers on your stuff Wow... that's a really good, low-tech solution.

rajivm 13y ago

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=200243180 http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=... "Your item must be a non-media product (you cannot send in books, CDs, VHS or DVDs without stickers)." It seems Amazon actually no longer allows co-mingling of media products.

Tyrannosaurs 13y ago
That'll stop a lot of the problem but not all. A friend's company have massive counterfeit problems with Beats by Dre headphones. In their case it's people buying genuine product from them, buying cheap (but cosmetically good) copies, and returning the copy (saying it's the original) for a refund. Testing every return isn't something most companies do so it had become a major issue by the time they'd worked out what was happening. No reason why the same cosmetically convincing product couldn't screw up FBA co-mingling.
Lazare 13y ago
I did some digging, and it seems that the rules for FBA are highly variable for different vendors. Larger vendors, or vendors who have been part of the FBA program for a long time, seem to still be able to comingle, but there's a lot of confusion about it. No one quite seems sure if it's something that only old vendors get (grand-fathered in from back when it was a standard part of FBA) or something that large/trustworthy vendors get (offered on a case-by-case basis). It might even be both. As best as I can tell, it seems that commingling is happening today, and may account for the bulk of FBA transactions (due to a few very large/old vendors still doing it), but the overwhelming majority of FBA vendors cannot commingle, many have no idea that commingling even exists, and if you signed up today you would not be able to commingle.