6 ms·

Australia tried to monitor Indonesian president's phone

39 points by mafro 13y ago

thejosh 13y ago
Even aussies can't make nice slides... http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/11/18/1384738604789/Slide5DSD_cropped.jpg http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/20...
- girvo 13y ago
  Come on, us Aussies are just dying to become "Little America" (at least at the political level). Of course that goes through to terrible slides ;)
kevcampb 13y ago
"Asked about the spying revelations in a separate interview, Abbott said: "To use the term spying, it's kind of loaded language … researching maybe. Talking to people. Understanding what's going on."" Is this the onion?
- alwaysinshade 13y ago
  No, that's just Tony Abbott. Expect more hilarity in the years (days?) to come. If you can't wait, just Google some of his past statements. If you like prejudice, two-dimensional thinking and more meaningless rhetoric than you can shake a stick at, then you're going to love Tony Abbott. Let's see where he can take a country that ranked #2 on the Human Development Index and the highest of 34 countries on the OECD Better Life index. Should be interesting, considering he was voted in by the "Aussie battlers" who were enjoying a better quality of life than they've ever experienced in Australian history (notice Australia doesn't move on the HDI even when you account for inequality? The US sure does, from #3 to #16). Should be great when, under the Trans-Pacific Partnership he sells out to the US to trade a few horses [1] and our healthcare/pharmaceutical industry emulates the American system. Good times ahead. [1] "there's always horse-trading in these negotiations, but in the end … everyone is better off" - Tony Abbot, November 14, 2013
  - voltagex_ 13y ago
    If I think pessimistically, between the TPP, NBN and carbon "tax", this government could do 50+ years worth of damage to Australia's economy, not to mention damage to reputation. What can we do?
    - MetallicCloud 13y ago
      I think the chance to do anything finished after the election.
      - dwd 13y ago
        There's any number of controversial bills that could trigger a Double Dissolution. The near doubling of the debt ceiling is one, though I expect Hockey to capitulate and take the 400 billion option. Clive Palmer's senate team are the ones to watch as they will be key in blocking the passage of any supply bills.
    - SyneRyder 13y ago
      Worth noting that the spying incident occurred in April 2009, which was under the leadership of Kevin Rudd... who would have been Prime Minister if Abbott hadn't won. Voting the other way may not have reduced the impact of this incident at all. I think all we can do is stop looking to government to solve everything for us. Work on your own sphere of influence, what you can improve yourself. All sides of politics are failing Australia right now, maybe it's better to just bypass government wherever you can, do things yourself or work with the people who can do things directly.
      - voltagex_ 13y ago
        Unfortunately I was relying on having 100+ megabit internet for working remotely.
- boogydown2 13y ago
  For anyone who doesn't know, Tony Abbot == George Bush Jr. He's incredible repugnant & stupid. It is definitely damning when someone like him actually could get elected. What a time to live in...
  - girvo 13y ago
    I for one, am leaving. Wasn't born here anyway, if I'm not careful they'll consider me fishing in the river in my tinny "illegal boat person", etc. sigh. What happened? :(
    - boogydown2 13y ago
      Globalisation of western politics? IDK but I feel like every single country is trying to emulate each other; Particularly America. I personally would like to leave but because of the absurd immigration policies of the countries I'd prefer, I cannot afford to leave or scared to go through some arduous transfer. Why does everything have to have this bureaucratic boloney in the way? I just want to be somewhere that doesn't have some group thinking they are at war with some people for some reason. So they then can repress/punish/victimise them for some form of gain (power, greed, jealousy, stupidity, etc). All the while they do this under the guise of their morality to protect their people. A man can dream.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - zaqokm 13y ago
    Like him or not, the documents were dated 2009 so at least part of this took place during the Rudd era. So I gather that makes Rudd, Dick Cheney ;).
tn13 13y ago
What is so surprising in that ?
craigvn 13y ago
Surely as an ally of the US we could have just asked for their copy of the Indonesians phone records.
alexeisadeski3 13y ago
Dog bites man. Are we supposed to be surprised at this? Appalled? Impressed? Isn't it normal for countries to spy on each other? What do we think intelligence agencies do?
- danenania 13y ago
  Slavery was normal for several millennia. Massive pollution and environmental carelessness are normal too. Bad acts aren't justified by being normal. If anything, it means the problem is systemic and therefore needs to be dealt with even more urgently.
  - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
    Okay, so why is this bad?
    - coldtea 13y ago
      Because a large power gains strategic advantages over a developing country.
      - victorhooi 13y ago
        By that simple statement alone, you've shown an astounding amount of ignorance about Australian-Indonesian relations, or the entire APAC region... (And an inability to use www.google.com... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93Indonesia_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93Indonesia_rel...) I'm Australian, so I'm probably biased, but the relationship between the two countries is complex, and layered. And it's definitely not a case of yes salah. And if you think the Indonesians didn't know we were spying on them (and they probably on us), then there's a bridge I can sell you...
        coldtea 13y ago
        >I'm Australian, so I'm probably biased, but the relationship between the two countries is complex, and layered. How's that making any difference to the matter? Colonial powers' relations with their colonies were "complex and layered" too. >And if you think the Indonesians didn't know we were spying on them (and they probably on us), then there's a bridge I can sell you... Again, what difference does it makes if they knew? A local power (and a US lackey) spies on them, and they know it. Is that much better than if they didn't know it? It's not like you don't get to enjoy the benefits of spying, blackmailing, upper hand in trade negotiations, etc because they know or suspect you're spying. And it's not like an (essentially) third world country had any major benefits by their feeble attempts at spying at you themselves...
tn13 13y ago
I am not sure what is there that this makes a news (and that too on HN). Spying is a very old tool in the art of statecraft. It is neither inherently immoral nor illegal. Even when we show outrage against NSA's snooping program, the only valid argument is that NSA perhaps can not snoop on American citizens as per the 4th amendment. The only locus standi that we as tech people can have is that we should focus building on technologies that are more and more government proof and beneficial to the tech community and government. We should fight tooth and nail with any attempts by government that might force us to put backdoors, bugs and deliberate vulnerabilities which can ease any governments job.
- danenania 13y ago
  Of course spying is immoral. I sure wouldn't want to be the friend or partner of someone who thinks it isn't. Torture and genocide are also very old tools in the 'art' of statecraft, so that's not much of an endorsement. If the supporters of this stuff are really down to 'well everybody does it', perhaps that's a sign that it's really just bad behavior.
  - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
    Nations spying on each other is immoral? Why?
    - coldtea 13y ago
      Because it's used by larger nations on smaller nations to take advantage of them.
      - zaqokm 13y ago
        I wouldn't say that Indonesia is a smaller nation than Australia, and by GDP ranked by countries they appear close to each other. Australia has had a strange relationship with Indonesia, for example Whitlam's involvement in Indonesia and Australia's involvement in Timor. The most recent interaction has been the people smugglers and the Bali bombings. So even though I am skeptical on countries spying on their citizens, the reason Australia spies on Indonesia ( and probably vis versa ), may be for very relevant reasons.

39 points by mafro 13y ago

Even aussies can't make nice slides... http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/11/18/1384738604789/Slide5DSD_cropped.jpg http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/20...

girvo 13y ago
Come on, us Aussies are just dying to become "Little America" (at least at the political level). Of course that goes through to terrible slides ;)

kevcampb 13y ago

"Asked about the spying revelations in a separate interview, Abbott said: "To use the term spying, it's kind of loaded language … researching maybe. Talking to people. Understanding what's going on."" Is this the onion?

alwaysinshade 13y ago
No, that's just Tony Abbott. Expect more hilarity in the years (days?) to come. If you can't wait, just Google some of his past statements. If you like prejudice, two-dimensional thinking and more meaningless rhetoric than you can shake a stick at, then you're going to love Tony Abbott. Let's see where he can take a country that ranked #2 on the Human Development Index and the highest of 34 countries on the OECD Better Life index. Should be interesting, considering he was voted in by the "Aussie battlers" who were enjoying a better quality of life than they've ever experienced in Australian history (notice Australia doesn't move on the HDI even when you account for inequality? The US sure does, from #3 to #16). Should be great when, under the Trans-Pacific Partnership he sells out to the US to trade a few horses [1] and our healthcare/pharmaceutical industry emulates the American system. Good times ahead. [1] "there's always horse-trading in these negotiations, but in the end … everyone is better off" - Tony Abbot, November 14, 2013
- voltagex_ 13y ago
  If I think pessimistically, between the TPP, NBN and carbon "tax", this government could do 50+ years worth of damage to Australia's economy, not to mention damage to reputation. What can we do?
  - MetallicCloud 13y ago
    I think the chance to do anything finished after the election.
    - dwd 13y ago
      There's any number of controversial bills that could trigger a Double Dissolution. The near doubling of the debt ceiling is one, though I expect Hockey to capitulate and take the 400 billion option. Clive Palmer's senate team are the ones to watch as they will be key in blocking the passage of any supply bills.
  - SyneRyder 13y ago
    Worth noting that the spying incident occurred in April 2009, which was under the leadership of Kevin Rudd... who would have been Prime Minister if Abbott hadn't won. Voting the other way may not have reduced the impact of this incident at all. I think all we can do is stop looking to government to solve everything for us. Work on your own sphere of influence, what you can improve yourself. All sides of politics are failing Australia right now, maybe it's better to just bypass government wherever you can, do things yourself or work with the people who can do things directly.
    - voltagex_ 13y ago
      Unfortunately I was relying on having 100+ megabit internet for working remotely.
boogydown2 13y ago
For anyone who doesn't know, Tony Abbot == George Bush Jr. He's incredible repugnant & stupid. It is definitely damning when someone like him actually could get elected. What a time to live in...
- girvo 13y ago
  I for one, am leaving. Wasn't born here anyway, if I'm not careful they'll consider me fishing in the river in my tinny "illegal boat person", etc. sigh. What happened? :(
  - boogydown2 13y ago
    Globalisation of western politics? IDK but I feel like every single country is trying to emulate each other; Particularly America. I personally would like to leave but because of the absurd immigration policies of the countries I'd prefer, I cannot afford to leave or scared to go through some arduous transfer. Why does everything have to have this bureaucratic boloney in the way? I just want to be somewhere that doesn't have some group thinking they are at war with some people for some reason. So they then can repress/punish/victimise them for some form of gain (power, greed, jealousy, stupidity, etc). All the while they do this under the guise of their morality to protect their people. A man can dream.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- zaqokm 13y ago
  Like him or not, the documents were dated 2009 so at least part of this took place during the Rudd era. So I gather that makes Rudd, Dick Cheney ;).

tn13 13y ago

What is so surprising in that ?

craigvn 13y ago

Surely as an ally of the US we could have just asked for their copy of the Indonesians phone records.

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

Dog bites man. Are we supposed to be surprised at this? Appalled? Impressed? Isn't it normal for countries to spy on each other? What do we think intelligence agencies do?

danenania 13y ago
Slavery was normal for several millennia. Massive pollution and environmental carelessness are normal too. Bad acts aren't justified by being normal. If anything, it means the problem is systemic and therefore needs to be dealt with even more urgently.
- alexeisadeski3 13y ago
  Okay, so why is this bad?
  - coldtea 13y ago
    Because a large power gains strategic advantages over a developing country.
    - victorhooi 13y ago
      By that simple statement alone, you've shown an astounding amount of ignorance about Australian-Indonesian relations, or the entire APAC region... (And an inability to use www.google.com... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93Indonesia_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93Indonesia_rel...) I'm Australian, so I'm probably biased, but the relationship between the two countries is complex, and layered. And it's definitely not a case of yes salah. And if you think the Indonesians didn't know we were spying on them (and they probably on us), then there's a bridge I can sell you...
      - coldtea 13y ago
        >I'm Australian, so I'm probably biased, but the relationship between the two countries is complex, and layered. How's that making any difference to the matter? Colonial powers' relations with their colonies were "complex and layered" too. >And if you think the Indonesians didn't know we were spying on them (and they probably on us), then there's a bridge I can sell you... Again, what difference does it makes if they knew? A local power (and a US lackey) spies on them, and they know it. Is that much better than if they didn't know it? It's not like you don't get to enjoy the benefits of spying, blackmailing, upper hand in trade negotiations, etc because they know or suspect you're spying. And it's not like an (essentially) third world country had any major benefits by their feeble attempts at spying at you themselves...

tn13 13y ago

I am not sure what is there that this makes a news (and that too on HN). Spying is a very old tool in the art of statecraft. It is neither inherently immoral nor illegal. Even when we show outrage against NSA's snooping program, the only valid argument is that NSA perhaps can not snoop on American citizens as per the 4th amendment. The only locus standi that we as tech people can have is that we should focus building on technologies that are more and more government proof and beneficial to the tech community and government. We should fight tooth and nail with any attempts by government that might force us to put backdoors, bugs and deliberate vulnerabilities which can ease any governments job.

danenania 13y ago
Of course spying is immoral. I sure wouldn't want to be the friend or partner of someone who thinks it isn't. Torture and genocide are also very old tools in the 'art' of statecraft, so that's not much of an endorsement. If the supporters of this stuff are really down to 'well everybody does it', perhaps that's a sign that it's really just bad behavior.
- alexeisadeski3 13y ago
  Nations spying on each other is immoral? Why?
  - coldtea 13y ago
    Because it's used by larger nations on smaller nations to take advantage of them.
    - zaqokm 13y ago
      I wouldn't say that Indonesia is a smaller nation than Australia, and by GDP ranked by countries they appear close to each other. Australia has had a strange relationship with Indonesia, for example Whitlam's involvement in Indonesia and Australia's involvement in Timor. The most recent interaction has been the people smugglers and the Bali bombings. So even though I am skeptical on countries spying on their citizens, the reason Australia spies on Indonesia ( and probably vis versa ), may be for very relevant reasons.