11 ms·

Time to abandon Gmail?

127 points by hepha1979 13y ago

JRDGRS 13y ago
LOL!
niggasbalting 13y ago
It's time for a worthwhile alternative.
- espadrine 13y ago
  Better yet, a worthwhile reinvention of the concept. I am hopeful with DarkMail, even though the name isn't very catchy. SecMail would sound much better.
na85 13y ago
Abandon Gmail for Outlook? Surely the author jests.
- adamwong246 13y ago
  That's what I said. Show me an alternative to gmail and I'll think about it but Outlook is one possibility I won't consider.
- snogglethorpe 13y ago
  His arguments are amazingly unconvincing, and he attempts to sweep by far the most important point for most people—whether or not Gmail is a good mail client or not—away with random hand-waving: "Meanwhile, its interface is as stale and frustrating as ever". Er, no, David, it's not (and never was). Where does ZDNET find these bozos? As far as I can tell, this is ZDNET hastily attempting to get some clicks by pandering to the youtube rage-quitting brigade. Business as usual for them I suppose, but why do people post this crap to HN?
  - na85 13y ago
    I've been downmodded heavily elsewhere onsite for suggesting that HNers love to hate google because of hipster mentality, so that clearly can't be it...
    - alwaysinshade 13y ago
      I'd say I'm a hipster, but I still like Google. I think you would have been down-voted for shitcanning hipsters (the implication is that rage-quitting Google's services it's fashionable and they're sheep) rather than you being correct that it's due to hipster mentality. In a way, shitcanning hipsters is fashionable, so we're all treading the same ground. Let's all have a beer together and chill out, just mind the beards. Disclaimer: I don't have a beard
    - ars_technician 13y ago
      >I've been downmodded heavily elsewhere onsite for suggesting that HNers love to hate google because of hipster mentality Because it's a stupid reason. You would get the same response if you suggested that the reason was that HNers love to hate google because they hate logos with color in them.
      - na85 13y ago
        I think that if you examine the meta on HN dispassionately you'll see it's actually a very good reason. It often gets couched in different language, but a great deal of HNers have a large dislike of HN because of either groupthink or mainstream-aversion.
    - pyre 13y ago
      > I've been downmodded [...] for suggesting [...] because of hipster mentality That's probably your problem right there. You're attempting to apply a negative label ('hipster') to a group of people with whom you disagree. If your only counter-point to someone is to 'suggest' that they only hold a particular view because it's trendy, then you're going to run into issues.
    - ksk 13y ago
- dmourati 13y ago
  Outlook, that was worth a good chuckle.
- skittles 13y ago
  No. Outlook.com, which is hotmail rebranded. It's pretty good.
  - na85 13y ago
    See, "hotmail rebranded" doesn't sound like a selling point to me. Years ago, I joined gmail specifically to get away from the awful hotmail UI.
    - ProAm 13y ago
      It's been awhile and vast improvements have been made. Outlook.com is legitimate these days.
    - danishabdullah 13y ago
      "Years ago"!!
- joelrunyon 13y ago
  I think using the "live" domain is a better branding strategy for MS. That said - I recently opened an account there & it's pretty slick.
hkmurakami 13y ago
> In its four years of life, Gmail has changed from embodying anti-Microsoft panache to being a gateway drug for Google’s online services. Pretty strange that one of the panelists chose not to include the "beta" years of GMail.
fumar 13y ago
There is a strong trend of anti-Google stories, not just on HN, but all over the web. Why? Is it just trendy to dislike Google? What are the alternatives to Google services? I am curious, I am not ready to dump Google, but I have been diversifying the services I use. Started using Outlook and Skydrive.
- yeukhon 13y ago
  Outlook interface is the worst. I have been using it because my school is using it. Every two months or so I see new frontend changes. The style/font/color jesus christ. No. Just no. As much as I dislike some of the recent changes in the gmail interface, overall Gmail is still quite usable. And if one doesn't trust Gmail then why would one trust Outlook or Yahoo Mail? The one thing I complain the most about GDrive is only one account is allowed to log in and use google drive. I just don't understand why Google engineers haven't fix this issue.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - JacobSkyler 13y ago
    >Outlook interface is the worst. I haven't had an issue with it, and I've been using Outlook.com pretty much since it came out. Before then I was using the Windows Live Mail desktop client and before then I was using Gmail.
    - yeukhon 13y ago
      It's all subjective, frontend stuff. But it's ugly. Really ugly. The font, the color scheme, default all effing ugly. A bug I encounter is when I click on an unread email, and if I then refresh the page the email is still mark unread, unless I read that email and hover to another email. Th
      - danishabdullah 13y ago
        Weird, I have never encountered this bug and I have been on outlook.com since the beta days. Perhaps, you temporarily had bad connectivity? Also, I will have to disagree on the design part. I find outlook.com refreshing. For me, that's just about right. Minimal, if any, bells and whistles.
locusm 13y ago
GMail keyboard shortcuts FTW! Love em. j-j-j-enter-v-"Fo"-enter = Move down 3 items, open email, move to "Follow up" folder When you have lots of folders drag n drop is totally useless compared to this.
- na85 13y ago
  Awesome. Didn't know about these. Here's a list for the lazy: https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6594?hl=en https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6594?hl=en
  - MarkSweep 13y ago
    You can also type a question mark to bring up a list in GMail. Be aware this list can scroll.
- mgkimsal 13y ago
  the "j" down key behavior seems to have changed last month. It used to switch between pages (on message 25, j would take you to #1 on page 2, or, message 26). It doesn't seem to trigger pagination now. :(
- nmjenkins 13y ago
  Pretty much everything in FastMail can be done with a keyboard shortcut as well: http://fastmail.wikia.com/wiki/KeyboardShortcuts http://fastmail.wikia.com/wiki/KeyboardShortcuts. It's "m" instead of "v" for move, but other than that, most shortcuts are the same as for GMail.
  - locusm 13y ago
    Been meaning to check out Fastmail, even more reason to now.
liyanchang 13y ago
Alternate question: Is there room for a 3rd-party Gmail web client, in the same way that Mailbox is a 3rd-party Gmail iOS client?
- XorNot 13y ago
  I use Gmail through Thunderbird on the desktop and K-9 Mail on my phone. I don't touch the web client at all except to set filtering rules.
cenhyperion 13y ago
I'm going to toss this up here as it looks like a really cool solution to self host. I haven't used it. https://github.com/al3x/sovereign https://github.com/al3x/sovereign
adamnemecek 13y ago
Is it just me or has gmail got REALLY slow for anyone else in the last 3 months as well? As in sometimes it might take like a minute to open an email. I was hoping that it was some temporary issue but it does not seem to be going away.
- themodelplumber 13y ago
  I use (hourly) both regular GMail and apps for domains, and I haven't noticed anything like that. A minute to open an email seems like it would be really noticeable, too.
  - adamnemecek 13y ago
    It's not always but it seems to be mostly with unread emails but sometimes with read emails as well.
    - seanc722 13y ago
      Have had no problems lately either :S
- jes5199 13y ago
  my Gmail tab in Chrome often gets into a state where it's using 100% CPU and is sluggish to respond to UI interactions. Is that what you mean, or something else?
  - adamnemecek 13y ago
    I don't think so. It's more that I click on an email, the 'Loading...' label shows up but it's not doing anything.
CurtMonash 13y ago
If I heard convincing stories of a good client, I'd use that. But I've used Gmail's web interface for years, with reasonable happiness. And yeah, the anti-spam rocks.
rdtsc 13y ago
Anyone have anything to say about fastmail? I have been hearing about it lately.
- philwelch 13y ago
  I've been using it for months. It seems like a serviceable IMAP backend. The spam filtering lets me down but anything is better than getting sucked back into Google again.
  - brongondwana 13y ago
    I would hope it's servicable! I put a lot of work into making it robust. It helps that we talk IMAP to the backend servers as well rather than some custom protocol (OK, so there are some IMAP extensions we use in house as well - but they're very much in the spirit of regular IMAP)
- coffeecheque 13y ago
  I've been using it for several months now. I really like it. It's fast, and reliable. I made the move, and haven't (really) looked back. The spam filtering isn't as good though. I've had a few false positives and false negatives. I don't get much spam, so it's not hard to have a quick look in the spam folder. Wish I didn't have to do this though. I like paying for the product. It's nice to know my emails aren't being scanned to build up a profile on me. It's nice to know that I am a customer (of the traditional kind). I haven't had to use support yet, but it's there. Unlike Gmail. I originally moved because I grew uneasy with the amount of information I had with Google. Now, I have none. A small win for me, but Google doesn't care. Ultimately, make the decision on the whole "best tool for the job" argument.
  - rdtsc 13y ago
    Thanks!
- eknkc 13y ago
  No Push to iOS makes me stick with EAS solutions. Is there any way to have push on FM?
Navarr 13y ago
"No"
joelrunyon 13y ago
Okay - what are the real alternatives to gmail? -Outlook.com -Ymail.com -Hushmail.com -Fastmail.fm --- Of the above - the only one I've heard great things about is fastmail. Can anyone else add to this list? (I'll try to update it).
- mtgx 13y ago
  If I'm going to switch from Gmail, and bother with the switch, I'm going to make sure it's for one that's damn secure. I do want to move away from Gmail, too, but only because I know Google will never offer end-to-end security to Gmail. Most, if not all of the ones you mentioned won't either. So I'll just wait a little longer, until something like Mailpile or some other usable e-mail service using DarkMail protocol or something better comes along, before I switch. Do I think Gmail's UI could use a major overhaul? Sure. But I'm not going to switch because of that, after using it for years. But as I said, I would switch for something more secure. Outlook would be the last e-mail service I'd ever switch to. They even gave NSA pre-encryption Outlook data [1], according to Snowden's leaks. That's beyond unacceptable, especially when they promise their users "security and privacy". Security and privacy are obviously just a joke to Microsoft, that's only useful to them in TV ads. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-c... Here are the more important bits about Outlook: > Outlook.com encryption unlocked even before official launch > Microsoft helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption to address concerns that the agency would be unable to intercept web chats on the new Outlook.com portal > The agency already had pre-encryption stage access to email on Outlook.com, including Hotmail; > Microsoft also worked with the FBI's Data Intercept Unit to "understand" potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create email aliases > Within five months, the documents explain, Microsoft and the FBI had come up with a solution that allowed the NSA to circumvent encryption on Outlook.com chats
  - XorNot 13y ago
    "End to end" security doesn't exist so long as you're using webmail. You want end to end security, use GPG. Otherwise accept that your email just isn't that interesting in the first place (or that you expect rule of law to prevent it's disclosure).
lukeqsee 13y ago
I clicked the link expecting to see security/privacy arguments (perhaps a HN bias?). Instead, I saw arguments against Gmail's best-in-class web-interface. The combination of keyboard shortcuts, labels, and filters make it the best. Having used Fastmail, it does rival Gmail, but only if you are an advanced user willing to put the effort into making it fit your use case. The reason I am slowly switching away from Gmail is founded in security and privacy considerations, somewhat better control over my own domain, and I think that Gmail's move to a the tabbed inbox was failure in large part, and mixes junk with legitimate mail in my inbox. FWIW, I've used Gmail for 6 or 7 years and Fastmail for 1 year. Edit: clarification
- bad_user 13y ago
  I can second this opinion. Not only that, but personally I like the new interface, even the classification that they are doing because you can customize it - I just got rid of the "Updates" tab, given that emails classified as such are usually important and everything is fine for me. What I don't like about GMail is the complete disregard for digital signing and encryption with S/MIME and/or OpenPGP. Therefore, on my Android right now I'm using K-9 and on the desktop I use Thunderbird. Thunderbird is actually pretty cool once you customize it a little (it even works with Google's Calendar and Tasks). There's even a cool Chrome/Firefox extension called Mailvelope, for making PGP work in webmail interfaces [1] and so it works straight in GMail, though in Firefox, due to a current limitation that probably won't get fixed until 27, it's very slow and also the extension currently doesn't support PGP/Mime and can't sync with key servers, although the author told me these features are planed for the next versions. And since I'm a Firefox user, I'll just have to wait for now. Note - I'm a Google Apps user, which means I have my own domain. I can always switch without losing my email address. If you're using a @gmail.com email address, then you should really stop doing that. [1] http://www.mailvelope.com/ http://www.mailvelope.com/
  - jkn 13y ago
    I'm a Google Apps user, which means I have my own domain. I can always switch without losing my email address. If you're using a @gmail.com email address, then you should really stop doing that. I'm thinking of switching to an Apps account but I'm worried about the complexity of the transition for all my data.. Do you have any advice for that? Also do you miss anything with an Apps account compared with a regular one?
_pmf_ 13y ago
Like the 26 previous times we had no choice but to leave Gmail, right?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
khnd 13y ago
i've been using it in html mode. it's not so bad!
pakitan 13y ago
Can anyone recommend a spam filtering solution (doesn't matter if free or paid) that can match Google's? Spam filtering is the main reason I'm staying with gmail and from my limited experience, SpamAssassin can't even come close to it.
cLeEOGPw 13y ago
Would anyone use peer-to-peer email service, that could send/receive to/from any other email provider and could be accessed also via web page, if there would be one?
exodust 13y ago
Abandon Gmail for Outlook.com? After suffering through the mega-fail Games for Windows Live, real suffering: constant restarting and sign-in needed, really slow, really annoying update cycles, terrible support procedures; kinda worked when you went through hell... sorta thing. After that torture, I'm reluctant to trust MS web email. I'm sure a different mob did the email application from the GFWL mess, but I won't rush over. I'd use Yahoo above Outlook. Yahoo email seems reliable enough, not too painful.
tspradeepkumar 13y ago
Yeah, Most of the govt organisations too block gmails because of the data it holds.....
kolleykibber 13y ago
Anybody else think this is suspicious given the current outlook.com advertising campaign?
chmars 13y ago
Gmail is IMHO still the best mail provider – and in combination with Google App for Business, the best groupware provider. I have tested many alternatives but I still mostly use Gmail. The reasons are mostly the feature set, the pricing, the security and the storage capacity. There are only two major annoyances in my daily use: More and more Google+ integration, lacking IMAP support. The latter lead me to use Google's own apps or Google-specific browsers like Mailplane. For heavy mail (and groupware) users, they only other alternatives is Exchange. Outlook.com/Office 365 is OK but very 'Microsofty', Hosted Exchange is a complete disaster.
Osmium 13y ago
I know Fastmail read HN, so I'm just going to use this as an opportunity (again) to say: please support push notifications on iOS! I know it's Apple's fault, and they should support IDLE, but that's not the point. The point is that thanks to Gmail no longer supporting push for non-business email accounts on iOS, there's now a gap in the market, and I really really want to be able to use Fastmail to fill that gap. But I won't be renewing my subscription if they can't support push...

127 points by hepha1979 13y ago

JRDGRS 13y ago

LOL!

niggasbalting 13y ago

It's time for a worthwhile alternative.

espadrine 13y ago
Better yet, a worthwhile reinvention of the concept. I am hopeful with DarkMail, even though the name isn't very catchy. SecMail would sound much better.

na85 13y ago

Abandon Gmail for Outlook? Surely the author jests.

adamwong246 13y ago
That's what I said. Show me an alternative to gmail and I'll think about it but Outlook is one possibility I won't consider.
snogglethorpe 13y ago
His arguments are amazingly unconvincing, and he attempts to sweep by far the most important point for most people—whether or not Gmail is a good mail client or not—away with random hand-waving: "Meanwhile, its interface is as stale and frustrating as ever". Er, no, David, it's not (and never was). Where does ZDNET find these bozos? As far as I can tell, this is ZDNET hastily attempting to get some clicks by pandering to the youtube rage-quitting brigade. Business as usual for them I suppose, but why do people post this crap to HN?
- na85 13y ago
  I've been downmodded heavily elsewhere onsite for suggesting that HNers love to hate google because of hipster mentality, so that clearly can't be it...
  - alwaysinshade 13y ago
    I'd say I'm a hipster, but I still like Google. I think you would have been down-voted for shitcanning hipsters (the implication is that rage-quitting Google's services it's fashionable and they're sheep) rather than you being correct that it's due to hipster mentality. In a way, shitcanning hipsters is fashionable, so we're all treading the same ground. Let's all have a beer together and chill out, just mind the beards. Disclaimer: I don't have a beard
  - ars_technician 13y ago
    >I've been downmodded heavily elsewhere onsite for suggesting that HNers love to hate google because of hipster mentality Because it's a stupid reason. You would get the same response if you suggested that the reason was that HNers love to hate google because they hate logos with color in them.
    - na85 13y ago
      I think that if you examine the meta on HN dispassionately you'll see it's actually a very good reason. It often gets couched in different language, but a great deal of HNers have a large dislike of HN because of either groupthink or mainstream-aversion.
  - pyre 13y ago
    > I've been downmodded [...] for suggesting [...] because of hipster mentality That's probably your problem right there. You're attempting to apply a negative label ('hipster') to a group of people with whom you disagree. If your only counter-point to someone is to 'suggest' that they only hold a particular view because it's trendy, then you're going to run into issues.
  - ksk 13y ago
dmourati 13y ago
Outlook, that was worth a good chuckle.
skittles 13y ago
No. Outlook.com, which is hotmail rebranded. It's pretty good.
- na85 13y ago
  See, "hotmail rebranded" doesn't sound like a selling point to me. Years ago, I joined gmail specifically to get away from the awful hotmail UI.
  - ProAm 13y ago
    It's been awhile and vast improvements have been made. Outlook.com is legitimate these days.
  - danishabdullah 13y ago
    "Years ago"!!
joelrunyon 13y ago
I think using the "live" domain is a better branding strategy for MS. That said - I recently opened an account there & it's pretty slick.

hkmurakami 13y ago

> In its four years of life, Gmail has changed from embodying anti-Microsoft panache to being a gateway drug for Google’s online services. Pretty strange that one of the panelists chose not to include the "beta" years of GMail.

fumar 13y ago

There is a strong trend of anti-Google stories, not just on HN, but all over the web. Why? Is it just trendy to dislike Google? What are the alternatives to Google services? I am curious, I am not ready to dump Google, but I have been diversifying the services I use. Started using Outlook and Skydrive.

yeukhon 13y ago
Outlook interface is the worst. I have been using it because my school is using it. Every two months or so I see new frontend changes. The style/font/color jesus christ. No. Just no. As much as I dislike some of the recent changes in the gmail interface, overall Gmail is still quite usable. And if one doesn't trust Gmail then why would one trust Outlook or Yahoo Mail? The one thing I complain the most about GDrive is only one account is allowed to log in and use google drive. I just don't understand why Google engineers haven't fix this issue.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- JacobSkyler 13y ago
  >Outlook interface is the worst. I haven't had an issue with it, and I've been using Outlook.com pretty much since it came out. Before then I was using the Windows Live Mail desktop client and before then I was using Gmail.
  - yeukhon 13y ago
    It's all subjective, frontend stuff. But it's ugly. Really ugly. The font, the color scheme, default all effing ugly. A bug I encounter is when I click on an unread email, and if I then refresh the page the email is still mark unread, unless I read that email and hover to another email. Th
    - danishabdullah 13y ago
      Weird, I have never encountered this bug and I have been on outlook.com since the beta days. Perhaps, you temporarily had bad connectivity? Also, I will have to disagree on the design part. I find outlook.com refreshing. For me, that's just about right. Minimal, if any, bells and whistles.

locusm 13y ago

GMail keyboard shortcuts FTW! Love em. j-j-j-enter-v-"Fo"-enter = Move down 3 items, open email, move to "Follow up" folder When you have lots of folders drag n drop is totally useless compared to this.

na85 13y ago
Awesome. Didn't know about these. Here's a list for the lazy: https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6594?hl=en https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6594?hl=en
- MarkSweep 13y ago
  You can also type a question mark to bring up a list in GMail. Be aware this list can scroll.
mgkimsal 13y ago
the "j" down key behavior seems to have changed last month. It used to switch between pages (on message 25, j would take you to #1 on page 2, or, message 26). It doesn't seem to trigger pagination now. :(
nmjenkins 13y ago
Pretty much everything in FastMail can be done with a keyboard shortcut as well: http://fastmail.wikia.com/wiki/KeyboardShortcuts http://fastmail.wikia.com/wiki/KeyboardShortcuts. It's "m" instead of "v" for move, but other than that, most shortcuts are the same as for GMail.
- locusm 13y ago
  Been meaning to check out Fastmail, even more reason to now.

liyanchang 13y ago

Alternate question: Is there room for a 3rd-party Gmail web client, in the same way that Mailbox is a 3rd-party Gmail iOS client?

XorNot 13y ago
I use Gmail through Thunderbird on the desktop and K-9 Mail on my phone. I don't touch the web client at all except to set filtering rules.

cenhyperion 13y ago

I'm going to toss this up here as it looks like a really cool solution to self host. I haven't used it. https://github.com/al3x/sovereign https://github.com/al3x/sovereign

adamnemecek 13y ago

Is it just me or has gmail got REALLY slow for anyone else in the last 3 months as well? As in sometimes it might take like a minute to open an email. I was hoping that it was some temporary issue but it does not seem to be going away.

themodelplumber 13y ago
I use (hourly) both regular GMail and apps for domains, and I haven't noticed anything like that. A minute to open an email seems like it would be really noticeable, too.
- adamnemecek 13y ago
  It's not always but it seems to be mostly with unread emails but sometimes with read emails as well.
  - seanc722 13y ago
    Have had no problems lately either :S
jes5199 13y ago
my Gmail tab in Chrome often gets into a state where it's using 100% CPU and is sluggish to respond to UI interactions. Is that what you mean, or something else?
- adamnemecek 13y ago
  I don't think so. It's more that I click on an email, the 'Loading...' label shows up but it's not doing anything.

CurtMonash 13y ago

If I heard convincing stories of a good client, I'd use that. But I've used Gmail's web interface for years, with reasonable happiness. And yeah, the anti-spam rocks.

rdtsc 13y ago

Anyone have anything to say about fastmail? I have been hearing about it lately.

philwelch 13y ago
I've been using it for months. It seems like a serviceable IMAP backend. The spam filtering lets me down but anything is better than getting sucked back into Google again.
- brongondwana 13y ago
  I would hope it's servicable! I put a lot of work into making it robust. It helps that we talk IMAP to the backend servers as well rather than some custom protocol (OK, so there are some IMAP extensions we use in house as well - but they're very much in the spirit of regular IMAP)
coffeecheque 13y ago
I've been using it for several months now. I really like it. It's fast, and reliable. I made the move, and haven't (really) looked back. The spam filtering isn't as good though. I've had a few false positives and false negatives. I don't get much spam, so it's not hard to have a quick look in the spam folder. Wish I didn't have to do this though. I like paying for the product. It's nice to know my emails aren't being scanned to build up a profile on me. It's nice to know that I am a customer (of the traditional kind). I haven't had to use support yet, but it's there. Unlike Gmail. I originally moved because I grew uneasy with the amount of information I had with Google. Now, I have none. A small win for me, but Google doesn't care. Ultimately, make the decision on the whole "best tool for the job" argument.
- rdtsc 13y ago
  Thanks!
eknkc 13y ago
No Push to iOS makes me stick with EAS solutions. Is there any way to have push on FM?

Navarr 13y ago

"No"

joelrunyon 13y ago

Okay - what are the real alternatives to gmail? -Outlook.com -Ymail.com -Hushmail.com -Fastmail.fm --- Of the above - the only one I've heard great things about is fastmail. Can anyone else add to this list? (I'll try to update it).

mtgx 13y ago
If I'm going to switch from Gmail, and bother with the switch, I'm going to make sure it's for one that's damn secure. I do want to move away from Gmail, too, but only because I know Google will never offer end-to-end security to Gmail. Most, if not all of the ones you mentioned won't either. So I'll just wait a little longer, until something like Mailpile or some other usable e-mail service using DarkMail protocol or something better comes along, before I switch. Do I think Gmail's UI could use a major overhaul? Sure. But I'm not going to switch because of that, after using it for years. But as I said, I would switch for something more secure. Outlook would be the last e-mail service I'd ever switch to. They even gave NSA pre-encryption Outlook data [1], according to Snowden's leaks. That's beyond unacceptable, especially when they promise their users "security and privacy". Security and privacy are obviously just a joke to Microsoft, that's only useful to them in TV ads. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-c... Here are the more important bits about Outlook: > Outlook.com encryption unlocked even before official launch > Microsoft helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption to address concerns that the agency would be unable to intercept web chats on the new Outlook.com portal > The agency already had pre-encryption stage access to email on Outlook.com, including Hotmail; > Microsoft also worked with the FBI's Data Intercept Unit to "understand" potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create email aliases > Within five months, the documents explain, Microsoft and the FBI had come up with a solution that allowed the NSA to circumvent encryption on Outlook.com chats
- XorNot 13y ago
  "End to end" security doesn't exist so long as you're using webmail. You want end to end security, use GPG. Otherwise accept that your email just isn't that interesting in the first place (or that you expect rule of law to prevent it's disclosure).

lukeqsee 13y ago

I clicked the link expecting to see security/privacy arguments (perhaps a HN bias?). Instead, I saw arguments against Gmail's best-in-class web-interface. The combination of keyboard shortcuts, labels, and filters make it the best. Having used Fastmail, it does rival Gmail, but only if you are an advanced user willing to put the effort into making it fit your use case. The reason I am slowly switching away from Gmail is founded in security and privacy considerations, somewhat better control over my own domain, and I think that Gmail's move to a the tabbed inbox was failure in large part, and mixes junk with legitimate mail in my inbox. FWIW, I've used Gmail for 6 or 7 years and Fastmail for 1 year. Edit: clarification

bad_user 13y ago
I can second this opinion. Not only that, but personally I like the new interface, even the classification that they are doing because you can customize it - I just got rid of the "Updates" tab, given that emails classified as such are usually important and everything is fine for me. What I don't like about GMail is the complete disregard for digital signing and encryption with S/MIME and/or OpenPGP. Therefore, on my Android right now I'm using K-9 and on the desktop I use Thunderbird. Thunderbird is actually pretty cool once you customize it a little (it even works with Google's Calendar and Tasks). There's even a cool Chrome/Firefox extension called Mailvelope, for making PGP work in webmail interfaces [1] and so it works straight in GMail, though in Firefox, due to a current limitation that probably won't get fixed until 27, it's very slow and also the extension currently doesn't support PGP/Mime and can't sync with key servers, although the author told me these features are planed for the next versions. And since I'm a Firefox user, I'll just have to wait for now. Note - I'm a Google Apps user, which means I have my own domain. I can always switch without losing my email address. If you're using a @gmail.com email address, then you should really stop doing that. [1] http://www.mailvelope.com/ http://www.mailvelope.com/
- jkn 13y ago
  I'm a Google Apps user, which means I have my own domain. I can always switch without losing my email address. If you're using a @gmail.com email address, then you should really stop doing that. I'm thinking of switching to an Apps account but I'm worried about the complexity of the transition for all my data.. Do you have any advice for that? Also do you miss anything with an Apps account compared with a regular one?

_pmf_ 13y ago

Like the 26 previous times we had no choice but to leave Gmail, right?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

khnd 13y ago

i've been using it in html mode. it's not so bad!

pakitan 13y ago

Can anyone recommend a spam filtering solution (doesn't matter if free or paid) that can match Google's? Spam filtering is the main reason I'm staying with gmail and from my limited experience, SpamAssassin can't even come close to it.

cLeEOGPw 13y ago

Would anyone use peer-to-peer email service, that could send/receive to/from any other email provider and could be accessed also via web page, if there would be one?

exodust 13y ago

Abandon Gmail for Outlook.com? After suffering through the mega-fail Games for Windows Live, real suffering: constant restarting and sign-in needed, really slow, really annoying update cycles, terrible support procedures; kinda worked when you went through hell... sorta thing. After that torture, I'm reluctant to trust MS web email. I'm sure a different mob did the email application from the GFWL mess, but I won't rush over. I'd use Yahoo above Outlook. Yahoo email seems reliable enough, not too painful.

tspradeepkumar 13y ago

Yeah, Most of the govt organisations too block gmails because of the data it holds.....

kolleykibber 13y ago

Anybody else think this is suspicious given the current outlook.com advertising campaign?

chmars 13y ago

Gmail is IMHO still the best mail provider – and in combination with Google App for Business, the best groupware provider. I have tested many alternatives but I still mostly use Gmail. The reasons are mostly the feature set, the pricing, the security and the storage capacity. There are only two major annoyances in my daily use: More and more Google+ integration, lacking IMAP support. The latter lead me to use Google's own apps or Google-specific browsers like Mailplane. For heavy mail (and groupware) users, they only other alternatives is Exchange. Outlook.com/Office 365 is OK but very 'Microsofty', Hosted Exchange is a complete disaster.

Osmium 13y ago

I know Fastmail read HN, so I'm just going to use this as an opportunity (again) to say: please support push notifications on iOS! I know it's Apple's fault, and they should support IDLE, but that's not the point. The point is that thanks to Gmail no longer supporting push for non-business email accounts on iOS, there's now a gap in the market, and I really really want to be able to use Fastmail to fill that gap. But I won't be renewing my subscription if they can't support push...