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Eh, I appreciate the effort that is being put into this argument but the reality of it is that it's not for me. If I have to drive an hour to see my client or s

by fat0wl 13y ago

Eh, I appreciate the effort that is being put into this argument but the reality of it is that it's not for me. If I have to drive an hour to see my client or send a lot of things back & forth in the mail it's really just time wasted. A good professional relationship & a couple of emails is all I need for freelance. If you're talking about a long-term high dollar amount thing then sure, I understand. & the reason I don't use one is simple -- I have an hourly rate. Whatever contract we come up with would look like this: "__ is my hourly rate. You will pay __ times the number of hours I worked." This has long been established since the first 1 or 2 interactions with any client and I think is obvious for any hourly service worker. Within the tech industry this is even standard for a lot of corporate consultants (I happen to be one). For freelance, I provide work estimates but things change. All the comments I see on this thread are like "write a change order for each change, make sure you keep a record of scope". No thanks, not for me. I just give estimates, tell the client when we're going over-budget. If they seem concerned we can talk about it if they say "Keep going no worries" then I keep going, no worries. I'm not at all saying that contracts aren't useful, it's just that the tech industry is really fast-paced and often involves remote work. If you're really concerned about stuff getting ugly, ask for a contract, sure. But I would do contract with 50% deposit because who actually wants to deal with going to court. At least you'd have 50% to sit on & think. To each his own but I'm a programmer not a businessman. I net way more money streamlining my coding process than I do thinking about stuff like this.

tptacek 13y ago
I don't write fiddly "change orders" either. I still work under a contract!
larrys 13y ago
"but I'm a programmer not a businessman" Actually don't short change yourself just because you might not have gone to "business" school. (Did you?) For example: "If I have to drive an hour to see my client or send a lot of things back & forth in the mail it's really just time wasted." Which makes a lot of sense. You have to factor in the pros and cons of all of this which you are clearly doing. What do I stand to gain? What do I stand to lose? "I just give estimates, tell the client when we're going over-budget." Exactly. State the framework "$x per hour" and keep them informed of any changes. Super easy to do with email as well. Communicate. I would also argue that getting people to sign things each and every time will get you less revenue because it gives them an opportunity to focus on the dollar to much. Once again, depending on the dollar amount and who you are dealing with. All situations are different.
- fat0wl 13y ago
  heh thanks for your vote of confidence... I've been getting a lot of flack on this thread for apparently having a controversial view but it's something I've reached through years of freelance in NYC & long-term contract work with a couple of major corporations. No business school, just easy-come-easy-go focus-on-the-bigger-picture engineering gigs. I say I'm not a businessman not because I don't do business, but because I just try to keep my focus on my skills that are actually generating revenue. In the end we're all at the will of the market and my personal belief is that the more pressing need is to understand those ebbs and flows rather than trying to build a safe-room. Chomsky I think said something about how 9/11 couldn't be a conspiracy because it would involve too many irrational actors working in concert. We must assume man to be rational. Kindof a non-sequitur, I know, but I approach business with this attitude. Assume you are dealing with rational actors, be a good judge of character (don't do a ton of work on spec for a business that is clearly failing, for example), and ride the wave. With this approach, the potential for gains is great and the losses are there but can easily be left in the rear-view mirror. Otherwise you will spend your week working and your weekends doing pro-bono bookkeeping for your own ventures. Seems we are very much in agreement here, hah.
  - mechanical_fish 13y ago
    Assume you are dealing with rational actors, be a good judge of character… You work for corporations, right? It's never a good idea to bet big money that a human being who is rational and classy today will remain so for months or years in the future. (After you've lived with a few Alzheimer's patients, you'll know what I'm talking about.) But corporations aren't even human. Their character is literally for sale. The honest and rational person you worked for on Monday could be bought out and replaced by a knuckle-dragging troll before the week is out. Seven years from now, when one of your customers has been acquired by some new company that has never heard of you, and that new company's East Texas-based law firm decides to make some easy money by sending out letters like this: "We had a software problem last month that we believe cost us $1 million and which we traced to a line of code that you committed eight years ago. Would you like to pay us $200k, or defend our incipient lawsuit?" What are you gonna do? My plan is to take the problem to my lawyer, who will say: "Can you give me a copy of the signed contract that, together with an hour of my time, will make this problem go away forever?" And I will say: "Yes". And it's not like this contract took months of my time to create. If you're not picky, you call up a lawyer, you say "I need a boilerplate consulting contract," they pull one out of the files and hand it to you.

by fat0wl 13y ago

tptacek 13y ago

I don't write fiddly "change orders" either. I still work under a contract!

larrys 13y ago

"but I'm a programmer not a businessman" Actually don't short change yourself just because you might not have gone to "business" school. (Did you?) For example: "If I have to drive an hour to see my client or send a lot of things back & forth in the mail it's really just time wasted." Which makes a lot of sense. You have to factor in the pros and cons of all of this which you are clearly doing. What do I stand to gain? What do I stand to lose? "I just give estimates, tell the client when we're going over-budget." Exactly. State the framework "$x per hour" and keep them informed of any changes. Super easy to do with email as well. Communicate. I would also argue that getting people to sign things each and every time will get you less revenue because it gives them an opportunity to focus on the dollar to much. Once again, depending on the dollar amount and who you are dealing with. All situations are different.

fat0wl 13y ago
heh thanks for your vote of confidence... I've been getting a lot of flack on this thread for apparently having a controversial view but it's something I've reached through years of freelance in NYC & long-term contract work with a couple of major corporations. No business school, just easy-come-easy-go focus-on-the-bigger-picture engineering gigs. I say I'm not a businessman not because I don't do business, but because I just try to keep my focus on my skills that are actually generating revenue. In the end we're all at the will of the market and my personal belief is that the more pressing need is to understand those ebbs and flows rather than trying to build a safe-room. Chomsky I think said something about how 9/11 couldn't be a conspiracy because it would involve too many irrational actors working in concert. We must assume man to be rational. Kindof a non-sequitur, I know, but I approach business with this attitude. Assume you are dealing with rational actors, be a good judge of character (don't do a ton of work on spec for a business that is clearly failing, for example), and ride the wave. With this approach, the potential for gains is great and the losses are there but can easily be left in the rear-view mirror. Otherwise you will spend your week working and your weekends doing pro-bono bookkeeping for your own ventures. Seems we are very much in agreement here, hah.
- mechanical_fish 13y ago
  Assume you are dealing with rational actors, be a good judge of character… You work for corporations, right? It's never a good idea to bet big money that a human being who is rational and classy today will remain so for months or years in the future. (After you've lived with a few Alzheimer's patients, you'll know what I'm talking about.) But corporations aren't even human. Their character is literally for sale. The honest and rational person you worked for on Monday could be bought out and replaced by a knuckle-dragging troll before the week is out. Seven years from now, when one of your customers has been acquired by some new company that has never heard of you, and that new company's East Texas-based law firm decides to make some easy money by sending out letters like this: "We had a software problem last month that we believe cost us $1 million and which we traced to a line of code that you committed eight years ago. Would you like to pay us $200k, or defend our incipient lawsuit?" What are you gonna do? My plan is to take the problem to my lawyer, who will say: "Can you give me a copy of the signed contract that, together with an hour of my time, will make this problem go away forever?" And I will say: "Yes". And it's not like this contract took months of my time to create. If you're not picky, you call up a lawyer, you say "I need a boilerplate consulting contract," they pull one out of the files and hand it to you.