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I'm not all that familiar with Indian developers, but what I have noticed is the extremely high amount of Indian "security researchers" and [security] "hackers"

I'm not all that familiar with Indian developers, but what I have noticed is the extremely high amount of Indian "security researchers" and [security] "hackers". I'm unsure as to why so many people there are attracted to information security, in particular. That wouldn't be bad, but the problem is that the majority have horrible, broken English, maintain blogs and even go as far as writing books with tons of plagiarized content and finally most of their writing is about entry-level script kiddie tricks or how to write Batch files/VBScript to open and close a CD tray in Windows. Anyone who has searched for "hacking tutorials/blogs/articles" and similar queries or who has an interest in infosec knows what I'm referring to. It seems as if many of them see security as some sort of toy field, or they're motivated by conflicts in their surrounding areas and are interested in cyberwarfare as an avenue to participate. The archetypal example of this is Ankit Fadia. In any event, it gets old and nauseating to look at these people. There are good Indian programmers and security researchers. But they're always the tiny exception. Maybe I'm biased, but it seems as though the ratio of unskilled IT workers to skilled and competent ones is much higher in India than anywhere else. Inputs?

ChuckMcM 13y ago
"Security Research" which can be a euphemism for hacking, has a built in reward metric and a low barrier to entry. It is also attractive to people who like to solve puzzles. If you are in a mass market being a "data base developer" at an job factory probably has very little positive feedback and peer recognition, but break the copy protection on a DVD so that you and your friends can all share a copy and you are a hero (lots of positive feedback). One community is self sustaining, the other isn't. So if you're self taught, spend most of your time cracking security systems, you are a 'security researcher' which is a slightly safer moniker than 'hacker' given the current political climate.
dominotw 13y ago
When I was growing up in india, Ankit Fadia became somewhat of a minor celebrity in India. I was not sure what he was doing or who he was but I believed he was some sort of a computer god. All the kids around me started reading his ethical hacker book. Maybe that has something to with lots of Indians wanting to be 'hackers' ?
- volume 13y ago
  There's a nice entry/summary about Ankit Fadia on a Quora. Google for "Ankit Fadia expert quora"
  - jlgaddis 13y ago
    Or, if you don't want to have to sign up and create an account, there's this piece from attrition.org: http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/ankit_fadia/ http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/ankit_fadia/
eshvk 13y ago
> Inputs? rolls eyes. You provide a bunch of anecdotal evidence about a country of 1 billion people and then ask people for inputs. I lived there for eight years; there are smart people and there are stupid people. The bell curve applies to every fucking demographic in the planet. Guess what? When you nickel and dime, you tend to get cheap labor and cheap labor sucks ass. This applies to call centers too. So instead of complaining about the race/ethnicity of the developer, maybe the complaint should go up to higher management. To give you an analogy: This is like deciding to buy a shoddy car because you are cheap and then complaining that the neighbor's porsche outstrips you every time you take it to the drag race.
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  True, but I still believe my observation about their computer security scene is valid. Like I said, a few simple search queries will yield lots of results.
  - eshvk 13y ago
    True, but I still believe my observation about $x is valid. Like I said, a few simple search queries will yield lots of results. Where $x can be an element of the following set: { America is a gun crazy violent nation where the streets are filled with people roaming with guns taking shots at minorities. , Abortion is murder, A woman's right to choose is important. } Pick your favorite bias. You will find "simple search queries" that will yield lots of results.
    - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
      All things considered, the charlatans receive disproportionately high results and representation. Never did I imply there aren't competent Indians in IT, but they do not receive as much spotlight. Second, your insistence on me generalizing about "1 billion people" is erroneous. The ones high enough in the caste system and with sufficient income to pursue such endeavors (and then the ones actually pursuing them) are much lower. India's demographics are well known for being highly mixed when it comes to social status and involving lots of polar extremes. Finally, your example biases are radical in comparison to the view that I point out. Ultimately, there is an issue. Don't try to take this as the ravings of some biased madman.
cperciva 13y ago
extremely high amount of Indian "security researchers" and [security] "hackers". Just one data point, but with Tarsnap's bug bounties, I've noticed a nearly 100% correlation between "submitter's name sounds Indian" and "wildly bogus submission which looks like it was produced by blindly running a website security scanner".

ChuckMcM 13y ago

"Security Research" which can be a euphemism for hacking, has a built in reward metric and a low barrier to entry. It is also attractive to people who like to solve puzzles. If you are in a mass market being a "data base developer" at an job factory probably has very little positive feedback and peer recognition, but break the copy protection on a DVD so that you and your friends can all share a copy and you are a hero (lots of positive feedback). One community is self sustaining, the other isn't. So if you're self taught, spend most of your time cracking security systems, you are a 'security researcher' which is a slightly safer moniker than 'hacker' given the current political climate.

dominotw 13y ago

When I was growing up in india, Ankit Fadia became somewhat of a minor celebrity in India. I was not sure what he was doing or who he was but I believed he was some sort of a computer god. All the kids around me started reading his ethical hacker book. Maybe that has something to with lots of Indians wanting to be 'hackers' ?

volume 13y ago
There's a nice entry/summary about Ankit Fadia on a Quora. Google for "Ankit Fadia expert quora"
- jlgaddis 13y ago
  Or, if you don't want to have to sign up and create an account, there's this piece from attrition.org: http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/ankit_fadia/ http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/ankit_fadia/

eshvk 13y ago

> Inputs? rolls eyes. You provide a bunch of anecdotal evidence about a country of 1 billion people and then ask people for inputs. I lived there for eight years; there are smart people and there are stupid people. The bell curve applies to every fucking demographic in the planet. Guess what? When you nickel and dime, you tend to get cheap labor and cheap labor sucks ass. This applies to call centers too. So instead of complaining about the race/ethnicity of the developer, maybe the complaint should go up to higher management. To give you an analogy: This is like deciding to buy a shoddy car because you are cheap and then complaining that the neighbor's porsche outstrips you every time you take it to the drag race.

vezzy-fnord 13y ago
True, but I still believe my observation about their computer security scene is valid. Like I said, a few simple search queries will yield lots of results.
- eshvk 13y ago
  True, but I still believe my observation about $x is valid. Like I said, a few simple search queries will yield lots of results. Where $x can be an element of the following set: { America is a gun crazy violent nation where the streets are filled with people roaming with guns taking shots at minorities. , Abortion is murder, A woman's right to choose is important. } Pick your favorite bias. You will find "simple search queries" that will yield lots of results.
  - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
    All things considered, the charlatans receive disproportionately high results and representation. Never did I imply there aren't competent Indians in IT, but they do not receive as much spotlight. Second, your insistence on me generalizing about "1 billion people" is erroneous. The ones high enough in the caste system and with sufficient income to pursue such endeavors (and then the ones actually pursuing them) are much lower. India's demographics are well known for being highly mixed when it comes to social status and involving lots of polar extremes. Finally, your example biases are radical in comparison to the view that I point out. Ultimately, there is an issue. Don't try to take this as the ravings of some biased madman.

cperciva 13y ago

extremely high amount of Indian "security researchers" and [security] "hackers". Just one data point, but with Tarsnap's bug bounties, I've noticed a nearly 100% correlation between "submitter's name sounds Indian" and "wildly bogus submission which looks like it was produced by blindly running a website security scanner".