4 ms·

Please don't post pharmaceutical claims from the "Mother Nature Network." :-/ The Guardian article this was scavenged from is very light on details too. http:

Please don't post pharmaceutical claims from the "Mother Nature Network." :-/ The Guardian article this was scavenged from is very light on details too. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/11/alcohol-benefits-no-dangers-closer-think http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/11/alcohol... It looks to be a GABA agonist, which as HarryHirsch points out, are hardly pharmaceuticals with a history of low risk ...

chimeracoder 13y ago
> It looks to be a GABA agonist, which as HarryHirsch points out, are hardly pharmaceuticals with a history of low risk ... GHB[0], diazepam (benzo), phenobarbitol (barbiturate).... GHB is in some sense safer than people think it is (the trouble is that overdoses are difficult to treat when they happen), but otherwise I'd agree - alcohol is in many ways one of the most dangerous drugs known to man, but sometimes it's better to stick to the devil you know. [0] Common club drug, as well as a common date rape drug
- jlgreco 13y ago
  > "[0] Common club drug, as well as a common date rape drug" GHB is used for that far less frequently than many people seem to think. The common date rape drug seems to be alcohol itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Frequency_of_occurrence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Frequency_of_occ... This realization is important because it changes what sort of caution should be used with drinks in clubs. First and foremost, it is important to have a strong grasp on how much ethanol your drinks have in them. Letting somebody order you an unfamiliar cocktail might not be a good idea if you don't have a solid grasp on how that extra drink will affect you (whereas conventional wisdom about date rape drugs might have you believe that accepting a random cocktail straight from the bartender is perfectly safe).
  - chimeracoder 13y ago
    Thanks for pointing that out. GHB is most often used recreationally (intentionally); I only mention it as a "date rape" drug because that's the context in which people are more likely to be familiar with the name. I wholeheartedly agree, though - alcohol is the most insidious date rape drug around.
  - weland 13y ago
    > This realization is important because it changes what sort of caution should be used with drinks in clubs. This is very, very sound advice! I have a somewhat unusually high tolerance to alcohol, which means that by the time everyone around me is drunk as fuck, I'm just getting worked up, and I'm no fun at drinking contests. As a consequence, I have witnessed an unspeakable number of people leaving with people they just met (or worse, driving) when they were drunk beyond belief. Having a history of alcohol intake myself, I know perfectly well that you can be quite sure you're in perfect share when you're barely dragging your feet. GHB may be fancy and slick, but I have often seen people who were so drunk that it wouldn't have had any obvious, immediate effect. Obligatory disclaimer: my heavy alcohol intake coincided with a period when I suffered from, and actually sought treatment for depression. I never slipped into alcoholism, but drank heavily. I still drink, and still more than your average Joe, but when I feel I get dizzy, I switch to soda. "Stay away from the booze!" is not something I'd advocate, but being careful with the booze is an advice I give wholeheartedly and out of quite some sorrow experience. Your liver may well survive the intake, but your brain and your soul are a lot more fragile than they seem.
  - aestra 13y ago
    GHB is actually used as a drug to treat narcolepsy as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_oxybate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_oxybate
- derleth 13y ago
  It's been said before, but the most dangerous date rape drug is alcohol. GHB is new and unfamiliar, so it gets the worse rap, but alcohol has pretty much everything an date rape drug would have: It induces a loss of inhibition, a loss of motor control, a loss of language skills, and loss of consciousness with retrograde amnesia[0]. It also has one very important factor working in its favor: Social acceptance. Nobody gives it a second glance. [0] Retrograde amnesia is a loss of memories formed before the event; in this case, the event is the point at which the person loses consciousness entirely.
- mjbeswick 13y ago
  GHB taken responsibly can be enjoyable, but really isn't for people that are irresponsible. As bad as alcohol is, if you drink too much, you will likely vomit and still be in a conscious state. If you take too much GHB you can lose consciousness within minutes, and not recover for two or more hours. It's a shame that it is a banned substance, but in this case it really is to save people from their own stupidity.
hershel 13y ago
The drugs we are talking about are Bretazenil[1] and Pagoclone[2], which are more targeted than GABA agonists - they only bind to certain subtypes of the GABA receptor. They are also claimed to be partial agonists , meaning even at maximum capacity they only stimulate the receptor to a fraction[3] of a full agonist. One the other hand The potential of abuse of Pagoclone claimed to be similar to that of valium(how did they measure that ?). On the other hand, there's some interesting work on molecules that decrease dependence/tolerance.For example there's work on reducing morphine abuse potential using calcium/magnesium in rats[4].There's also conflicting research results regarding the effect of magnesium, glycine and zinc on the effect alcohol has on the NMDA receptor(which is supposed to be the main cause of tolerance)[5]. So maybe there's a combination that gives most of the benefits of alcohol , with a small dependence potential. Let's not get discouraged from this noble goal yet. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretazenil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretazenil [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagoclone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagoclone [3]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Agonist_2.png/330px-Agonist_2.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Ago... [4]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19658277 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19658277 [5]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK5284/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK5284/
peteretep 13y ago
David Nutt, the author, is the Real Deal though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt
Fice 13y ago
The link to the Guardian article appeared earlier (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6720342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6720342) and was ignored by HN readers.

chimeracoder 13y ago

> It looks to be a GABA agonist, which as HarryHirsch points out, are hardly pharmaceuticals with a history of low risk ... GHB[0], diazepam (benzo), phenobarbitol (barbiturate).... GHB is in some sense safer than people think it is (the trouble is that overdoses are difficult to treat when they happen), but otherwise I'd agree - alcohol is in many ways one of the most dangerous drugs known to man, but sometimes it's better to stick to the devil you know. [0] Common club drug, as well as a common date rape drug

jlgreco 13y ago
> "[0] Common club drug, as well as a common date rape drug" GHB is used for that far less frequently than many people seem to think. The common date rape drug seems to be alcohol itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Frequency_of_occurrence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Frequency_of_occ... This realization is important because it changes what sort of caution should be used with drinks in clubs. First and foremost, it is important to have a strong grasp on how much ethanol your drinks have in them. Letting somebody order you an unfamiliar cocktail might not be a good idea if you don't have a solid grasp on how that extra drink will affect you (whereas conventional wisdom about date rape drugs might have you believe that accepting a random cocktail straight from the bartender is perfectly safe).
- chimeracoder 13y ago
  Thanks for pointing that out. GHB is most often used recreationally (intentionally); I only mention it as a "date rape" drug because that's the context in which people are more likely to be familiar with the name. I wholeheartedly agree, though - alcohol is the most insidious date rape drug around.
- weland 13y ago
  > This realization is important because it changes what sort of caution should be used with drinks in clubs. This is very, very sound advice! I have a somewhat unusually high tolerance to alcohol, which means that by the time everyone around me is drunk as fuck, I'm just getting worked up, and I'm no fun at drinking contests. As a consequence, I have witnessed an unspeakable number of people leaving with people they just met (or worse, driving) when they were drunk beyond belief. Having a history of alcohol intake myself, I know perfectly well that you can be quite sure you're in perfect share when you're barely dragging your feet. GHB may be fancy and slick, but I have often seen people who were so drunk that it wouldn't have had any obvious, immediate effect. Obligatory disclaimer: my heavy alcohol intake coincided with a period when I suffered from, and actually sought treatment for depression. I never slipped into alcoholism, but drank heavily. I still drink, and still more than your average Joe, but when I feel I get dizzy, I switch to soda. "Stay away from the booze!" is not something I'd advocate, but being careful with the booze is an advice I give wholeheartedly and out of quite some sorrow experience. Your liver may well survive the intake, but your brain and your soul are a lot more fragile than they seem.
- aestra 13y ago
  GHB is actually used as a drug to treat narcolepsy as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_oxybate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_oxybate
derleth 13y ago
It's been said before, but the most dangerous date rape drug is alcohol. GHB is new and unfamiliar, so it gets the worse rap, but alcohol has pretty much everything an date rape drug would have: It induces a loss of inhibition, a loss of motor control, a loss of language skills, and loss of consciousness with retrograde amnesia[0]. It also has one very important factor working in its favor: Social acceptance. Nobody gives it a second glance. [0] Retrograde amnesia is a loss of memories formed before the event; in this case, the event is the point at which the person loses consciousness entirely.
mjbeswick 13y ago
GHB taken responsibly can be enjoyable, but really isn't for people that are irresponsible. As bad as alcohol is, if you drink too much, you will likely vomit and still be in a conscious state. If you take too much GHB you can lose consciousness within minutes, and not recover for two or more hours. It's a shame that it is a banned substance, but in this case it really is to save people from their own stupidity.

hershel 13y ago

The drugs we are talking about are Bretazenil[1] and Pagoclone[2], which are more targeted than GABA agonists - they only bind to certain subtypes of the GABA receptor. They are also claimed to be partial agonists , meaning even at maximum capacity they only stimulate the receptor to a fraction[3] of a full agonist. One the other hand The potential of abuse of Pagoclone claimed to be similar to that of valium(how did they measure that ?). On the other hand, there's some interesting work on molecules that decrease dependence/tolerance.For example there's work on reducing morphine abuse potential using calcium/magnesium in rats[4].There's also conflicting research results regarding the effect of magnesium, glycine and zinc on the effect alcohol has on the NMDA receptor(which is supposed to be the main cause of tolerance)[5]. So maybe there's a combination that gives most of the benefits of alcohol , with a small dependence potential. Let's not get discouraged from this noble goal yet. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretazenil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretazenil [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagoclone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagoclone [3]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Agonist_2.png/330px-Agonist_2.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Ago... [4]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19658277 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19658277 [5]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK5284/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK5284/

peteretep 13y ago

David Nutt, the author, is the Real Deal though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt

Fice 13y ago

The link to the Guardian article appeared earlier (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6720342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6720342) and was ignored by HN readers.