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The last two games have been really exciting, ending in two straight psychological blows to Anand in situations that should have been clear draws. Shows just ho

by pi-rat 13y ago

The last two games have been really exciting, ending in two straight psychological blows to Anand in situations that should have been clear draws. Shows just how incredibly strong Magnus' end game is. I wonder how Anand will come back after this, I recon if he does not get a good win in one of the following matches (he is white again on Monday) he won't be able to come back.

tbrake 13y ago
Fortunately for Vishy, Magnus is a fighter who wants to play interesting chess, and this will at least give him a chance as in the 3rd round. Carlsen has unmatched playing strength and I feel if he truly wanted a draw in each of the last six games he could force one and there would be little Anand could do about it. Were he another grandmaster I could see this being the case and it's certainly a legitimate tactic after taking the lead in a game limited match. Ultimately I think Carlsen will win regardless - he's simply too strong and has been for a long time; if anything the title is overdue to be his.
- wslh 13y ago
  Ultimately I think Carlsen will win regardless - he's simply too strong and has been for a long time Is it time for a new generation of competition between Carlsen and machines?
  - tbrake 13y ago
    Probably not. I think that battle is over I enjoy the pragmatic stance of Anand on the matter http://www.chessquotes.com/player-anand http://www.chessquotes.com/player-anand : There are some things we do much better than computers, but since most of chess is tactically based they do many things better than humans. And this imbalance remains. I no longer have any issues. It’s bit like asking an astronomer, does he mind that a telescope does all the work. He is used to it. It is just an incredible tool that you can use.
    - petegrif 13y ago
      Agreed. In fact you have to be an incredibly strong player (2600+) to not be wiped off the board in around 20 moves these days. The Bulgarian cheater who was recently banned regularly crushed GMs - it was scary.
      - wslh 13y ago
        But, don't you think that there is room for improvement on the humand side? probably with creativity.
        pi-rat 13y ago
        Creativity (and carlsen is a big creativity player in the early game) doesn't really matter as long as the computer is strong enough to explore most, if not all game branches in the end game 20 moves deep. A really good player can only hope to draw.
        petegrif 13y ago
        Hard to see what it could mean. And even if some genius came up with some currently inconceivable insight that could also be added to the computer's repetoire.
      - richardw 13y ago
        I only became aware of the issue when reading these articles [1]. It's possible there's some leeway he's owed. I don't know enough about it, obviously. [1] http://en.chessbase.com/post/a-gro-miscarriage-of-justice-in-computer-che-part-one- http://en.chessbase.com/post/a-gro-miscarriage-of-justice-in... Full paper: http://en.chessbase.com/portals/4/files/news/2011/riis01.pdf http://en.chessbase.com/portals/4/files/news/2011/riis01.pdf
        petegrif 13y ago
        That's right. I was referring to Ivanov and he was well and truly busted recently and has now 'retired.'
        13y ago
  - pi-rat 13y ago
    The creator of Houdini 3 (one of the strongest chess solvers) was interviewed about it recently, he said the software is so good that it would probably win 8 times out of 10 (2 draws) against someone of Carlsen's strength. Carlsen on the other hand says that he doesn't care, it's not something he even thinks about.. And it's natural I guess, think back to the early days of any technology, people would do stuff faster, then after a while it doesn't even matter, nobody thinks about it. The days of chess man vs machine was back in the days of Deep Blue. There is a really young chinese kid that's a real rising chess-whiz, give him a few more years and he will give Carlsen a real challenge. It's time for the new generation of chess players indeed :)
    - petegrif 13y ago
      Wrt 'young Chinese kid' - Wei Yi - he is indeed a prodigy but there have been many prodigies and whilst they all end up very very vyer strong players by no means all of them challenge for the top spot. If you look at the list of youngest GMs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_prodigy#List_of_youngest_grandmasters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_prodigy#List_of_youngest_... you will see that of all these prodigies only a very small number are current super GMs with any real chance at the very top spot. Even Karjakin (a GM at 12) is currently not at that level. For what it's worth my tip to be a serious challenge is Caruana.
      - asdfologist 13y ago
        Even Caruana has plateaued a bit the last few years, whereas Carlsen just keeps getting stronger. At Caruana's age, Carlsen's ELO was well into the 2800s. Right now Carlsen's competition looks pretty bleak.
        petegrif 13y ago
        Yes - I can't justify my instinct here. I believe there have only ever been 7 players >2800 ELO and Caruana is one of them. But of those Kasparov is retired and Anand, Topalov and probably Kramnik have probably peaked. That leaves Carlsen - out on his own - and Aronian and Caruana. Aronian has probably peaked (he is 31)which leaves Caruana. The next 2-3 years should tell us what he is capable of.
  - werid 13y ago
    According to interviews with the people around him, he's not interested in beating machines.
byambatsogt 13y ago
I would say Carlsen's stamina is what bringing him the victories. Anand is not being able to keep his concentration on high level after 5 hours of battle. Clearly shows the age difference.
- pi-rat 13y ago
  Indeed, carlsen is also in incredible good shape in addition to his young age. Regularly works out, plays soccer on the side (and is actually quite good at soccer). You can see Anand getting tired from sitting in the same position some of the matches, moving about in his chair.
- petegrif 13y ago
  His stamina is undoubtedly a major strength. And this is allied with his uncanny ability to keep pressure on his opponents in even the most apparently even positions. This pressure mounts and the psychological impact is devastating because his opponent knows that the most tiny inaccuracy will be noted and he will immediately be under still more pressure. This pressure to play perfectly is gruelling over 6-7 hours. The thing that most people don't appreciate is that a player like Carlsen, even against the most phenomenal opponent like Anand, is like a python, the slightest pause for breath, the most minute inaccuracy, and the coils tighten. It's suffocating.
  - pk2200 13y ago
    Agree 100%. In this regard, Carlsen's playing style reminds me of Bobby Fischer, who was legendary for playing on (and winning) from equal positions.
- asdfologist 13y ago
  That can't explain everything though. Carlsen's playing at a much higher level than Anand ever did in his prime. Even accounting for inflation, Carlsen's ELO is much higher than Anand's ever been.

by pi-rat 13y ago

tbrake 13y ago

Fortunately for Vishy, Magnus is a fighter who wants to play interesting chess, and this will at least give him a chance as in the 3rd round. Carlsen has unmatched playing strength and I feel if he truly wanted a draw in each of the last six games he could force one and there would be little Anand could do about it. Were he another grandmaster I could see this being the case and it's certainly a legitimate tactic after taking the lead in a game limited match. Ultimately I think Carlsen will win regardless - he's simply too strong and has been for a long time; if anything the title is overdue to be his.

wslh 13y ago
Ultimately I think Carlsen will win regardless - he's simply too strong and has been for a long time Is it time for a new generation of competition between Carlsen and machines?
- tbrake 13y ago
  Probably not. I think that battle is over I enjoy the pragmatic stance of Anand on the matter http://www.chessquotes.com/player-anand http://www.chessquotes.com/player-anand : There are some things we do much better than computers, but since most of chess is tactically based they do many things better than humans. And this imbalance remains. I no longer have any issues. It’s bit like asking an astronomer, does he mind that a telescope does all the work. He is used to it. It is just an incredible tool that you can use.
  - petegrif 13y ago
    Agreed. In fact you have to be an incredibly strong player (2600+) to not be wiped off the board in around 20 moves these days. The Bulgarian cheater who was recently banned regularly crushed GMs - it was scary.
    - wslh 13y ago
      But, don't you think that there is room for improvement on the humand side? probably with creativity.
      - pi-rat 13y ago
        Creativity (and carlsen is a big creativity player in the early game) doesn't really matter as long as the computer is strong enough to explore most, if not all game branches in the end game 20 moves deep. A really good player can only hope to draw.
      - petegrif 13y ago
        Hard to see what it could mean. And even if some genius came up with some currently inconceivable insight that could also be added to the computer's repetoire.
    - richardw 13y ago
      I only became aware of the issue when reading these articles [1]. It's possible there's some leeway he's owed. I don't know enough about it, obviously. [1] http://en.chessbase.com/post/a-gro-miscarriage-of-justice-in-computer-che-part-one- http://en.chessbase.com/post/a-gro-miscarriage-of-justice-in... Full paper: http://en.chessbase.com/portals/4/files/news/2011/riis01.pdf http://en.chessbase.com/portals/4/files/news/2011/riis01.pdf
      - petegrif 13y ago
        That's right. I was referring to Ivanov and he was well and truly busted recently and has now 'retired.'
      - 13y ago
- pi-rat 13y ago
  The creator of Houdini 3 (one of the strongest chess solvers) was interviewed about it recently, he said the software is so good that it would probably win 8 times out of 10 (2 draws) against someone of Carlsen's strength. Carlsen on the other hand says that he doesn't care, it's not something he even thinks about.. And it's natural I guess, think back to the early days of any technology, people would do stuff faster, then after a while it doesn't even matter, nobody thinks about it. The days of chess man vs machine was back in the days of Deep Blue. There is a really young chinese kid that's a real rising chess-whiz, give him a few more years and he will give Carlsen a real challenge. It's time for the new generation of chess players indeed :)
  - petegrif 13y ago
    Wrt 'young Chinese kid' - Wei Yi - he is indeed a prodigy but there have been many prodigies and whilst they all end up very very vyer strong players by no means all of them challenge for the top spot. If you look at the list of youngest GMs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_prodigy#List_of_youngest_grandmasters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_prodigy#List_of_youngest_... you will see that of all these prodigies only a very small number are current super GMs with any real chance at the very top spot. Even Karjakin (a GM at 12) is currently not at that level. For what it's worth my tip to be a serious challenge is Caruana.
    - asdfologist 13y ago
      Even Caruana has plateaued a bit the last few years, whereas Carlsen just keeps getting stronger. At Caruana's age, Carlsen's ELO was well into the 2800s. Right now Carlsen's competition looks pretty bleak.
      - petegrif 13y ago
        Yes - I can't justify my instinct here. I believe there have only ever been 7 players >2800 ELO and Caruana is one of them. But of those Kasparov is retired and Anand, Topalov and probably Kramnik have probably peaked. That leaves Carlsen - out on his own - and Aronian and Caruana. Aronian has probably peaked (he is 31)which leaves Caruana. The next 2-3 years should tell us what he is capable of.
- werid 13y ago
  According to interviews with the people around him, he's not interested in beating machines.

byambatsogt 13y ago

I would say Carlsen's stamina is what bringing him the victories. Anand is not being able to keep his concentration on high level after 5 hours of battle. Clearly shows the age difference.

pi-rat 13y ago
Indeed, carlsen is also in incredible good shape in addition to his young age. Regularly works out, plays soccer on the side (and is actually quite good at soccer). You can see Anand getting tired from sitting in the same position some of the matches, moving about in his chair.
petegrif 13y ago
His stamina is undoubtedly a major strength. And this is allied with his uncanny ability to keep pressure on his opponents in even the most apparently even positions. This pressure mounts and the psychological impact is devastating because his opponent knows that the most tiny inaccuracy will be noted and he will immediately be under still more pressure. This pressure to play perfectly is gruelling over 6-7 hours. The thing that most people don't appreciate is that a player like Carlsen, even against the most phenomenal opponent like Anand, is like a python, the slightest pause for breath, the most minute inaccuracy, and the coils tighten. It's suffocating.
- pk2200 13y ago
  Agree 100%. In this regard, Carlsen's playing style reminds me of Bobby Fischer, who was legendary for playing on (and winning) from equal positions.
asdfologist 13y ago
That can't explain everything though. Carlsen's playing at a much higher level than Anand ever did in his prime. Even accounting for inflation, Carlsen's ELO is much higher than Anand's ever been.