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A comment I left a few weekends ago, which addressed the same topic but before the Youtube/G+ story broke: [0] "Hijacking the top comment to talk about a big c

by spenvo 13y ago

A comment I left a few weekends ago, which addressed the same topic but before the Youtube/G+ story broke: [0] "Hijacking the top comment to talk about a big concern I have. This EFF article argues that there's a place for Anonymity on the Internet [1], and I think most of us agree (especially if we emphathize with those in Iran, China, Syria, and the like). But what HNers must realize is the following: The mainstream Internet can not become the Tor-visited Dark-Net (which restores anonymity) that many believe is inevitable WITHOUT losing its positive sociological impact. Sites like Reddit, Twitter, even HN rely on anonymity and also provide a great deal of such value. Here's a simple example of 'sociological impact': CNN (FoxNews, etc) pays attention to what the top links on Reddit are, because the site is in the public's face -- and: the people have a collective voice. Next: Without the perception of anonymity, sites like Reddit will stop flourishing. Let's go deeper: Reddit's culture thrives on "anonymity" in the form of throwaway accounts and people being themselves without representing themselves. Throwaway accounts (heard of 'Cation Bot' or 'AWildSketchAppeared'?) are a form of expression unique to environments which allow for anonymity (pseudonyms). Who's to say novelty accounts would be as risque or hilarious without anonymity? Certainly these sites flourish because users feel comfortable playing a part and taking a chance. There are two issues at play which threaten anonymity on Reddit. Now obvious (in light of Snowden's leaks): 1.) Reddit usernames can, and probably are, being mapped to peoples' actual identity. ... Not as obvious: 2.) Users' up and down votes, even private messages, can also be sniffed with ease. Reddit's' devteam has retreated from the idea of providing HTTPS for its voting/web API [2], so people's actions (aside from comments) can be mapped as well. I tried to raise awareness of this issue five months ago [3]. I know there's an argument to be made that SSL/HTTPS is useless anyway (just use Tor!, they say), but the bigger question remains: Can a mainstream community such as Reddit exist in tomorrow's Internet? I'd say that such web-societies are fragile -- likely targets of dragnet surveillance and subversion, especially given their disruptive nature. People and the press are paranoid about Facebook/Google privacy because its users (are encouraged to) identify themselves explicitly, but the reality is no different with sites like Reddit - just the perception. Just think about how much more is shared on a site like Reddit by its members because of their pseudonyms! Few people aside from the avid Tor-using//r/netsec crowd have realized this. Reddit is the internet "as we know it," and I feel the Internet is about to change. In hindsight - Google's initial "no pseudonyms" policy for Google+ was prescient -- though the company eventually capitulated to popular demand for them. [4] Perhaps they wished to save each of us the unsavory realization that aliases exist in name-only (pun intended). :/" [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6652909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6652909 [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/10/online-anonymity-not-only-trolls-and-political-dissidents https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/10/online-anonymity-not-o... [2] http://www.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/l4n6y/reddit_change_log_in_with_ssl_javascript_fixes/ http://www.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/l4n6y/reddit_chan... [3] http://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1n73s0/again_reddit_needs_fullsite_https/ http://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1n73s0/again_reddit... [4] http://www.ibtimes.com/google-allowing-nicknames-pseudonyms-aliases-399584 http://www.ibtimes.com/google-allowing-nicknames-pseudonyms-...

SnydenBitchy 13y ago
It’s interesting that you would hold up reddit as an example of the “positive sociological impact” of anonymity on the internet, when OP specifically describes her desire to avoid “sexist, racist, homophobic, sophomoric, monosyllabic jerks”—precisely the sort of creature that reddit breeds. Though to be fair, the anonymity may not be to blame for reddit’s culture, seeing as other internet forums with similar traditions of anonymity have managed to avoid attracting such unpleasant crowds.
- tehwalrus 13y ago
  But on reddit you can create an account called "fred_jones" or "slwkajbgj" instead of "Eleanora Rashid-Feldman" and avoid having that behaviour directed at you like a heat-seeking missile. GP is arguing that the douchebags only become a significant problem if your diversity[1] status is tagged to your profile. [1] Women are the majority, so "minority status" => "diversity status"
  - spenvo 13y ago
    @SnydenBitchy - Given the context, Reddit seems off-putting as an example. The comment I reposted was not in direct response to the OP. Tehwalrus makes an excellent observation. The role that anonymity played for OP on YT would serve her well on other communities like Reddit. Specifically to your remark on the questionable 'positive impact' of Reddit: I would argue that it has done a great deal to heighten the visibility of the Free and Open Internet/NSA stories and cases of corruption or injustice. There's a lot of insensitive humor, but I'm not going to say my (or anyone's) opinion of that matters, as long as no one is hurt or put in an inescapable position. The bigger point remains: Which web-communities depend on anonymity? As OP's story highlighted, clearly she (and presumably others), as a Youtube user - depend(ed) on anonymity.
    - SnydenBitchy 13y ago
      Well, this is a bit tangential, but I wonder if it’s true that reddit’s intolerant culture (extending far beyond “insensitive humor”) really doesn’t matter. A community like reddit, I think, would be so much more useful as a resource for activism and knowledge-sharing if only the culture of its mainstream were inclusive rather than hostile towards marginalized voices, including women and minorities. For example, the issues you mention of open internet, NSA spying, etc. affect everyone, not just the redditor in-crowd, and presumably would be of interest to a wider audience. And there are plenty more cases of injustice that don’t stand a chance of exciting passion among the redditor demographic—I’m thinking feminism or issues of racial justice (to name another example from recent memory, the voting majority of redditors are convinced George Zimmerman is a hero). I don’t know how different reddit’s culture would be without the anonymity, but I agree it’s an interesting question.

by spenvo 13y ago

SnydenBitchy 13y ago

It’s interesting that you would hold up reddit as an example of the “positive sociological impact” of anonymity on the internet, when OP specifically describes her desire to avoid “sexist, racist, homophobic, sophomoric, monosyllabic jerks”—precisely the sort of creature that reddit breeds. Though to be fair, the anonymity may not be to blame for reddit’s culture, seeing as other internet forums with similar traditions of anonymity have managed to avoid attracting such unpleasant crowds.

tehwalrus 13y ago
But on reddit you can create an account called "fred_jones" or "slwkajbgj" instead of "Eleanora Rashid-Feldman" and avoid having that behaviour directed at you like a heat-seeking missile. GP is arguing that the douchebags only become a significant problem if your diversity[1] status is tagged to your profile. [1] Women are the majority, so "minority status" => "diversity status"
- spenvo 13y ago
  @SnydenBitchy - Given the context, Reddit seems off-putting as an example. The comment I reposted was not in direct response to the OP. Tehwalrus makes an excellent observation. The role that anonymity played for OP on YT would serve her well on other communities like Reddit. Specifically to your remark on the questionable 'positive impact' of Reddit: I would argue that it has done a great deal to heighten the visibility of the Free and Open Internet/NSA stories and cases of corruption or injustice. There's a lot of insensitive humor, but I'm not going to say my (or anyone's) opinion of that matters, as long as no one is hurt or put in an inescapable position. The bigger point remains: Which web-communities depend on anonymity? As OP's story highlighted, clearly she (and presumably others), as a Youtube user - depend(ed) on anonymity.
  - SnydenBitchy 13y ago
    Well, this is a bit tangential, but I wonder if it’s true that reddit’s intolerant culture (extending far beyond “insensitive humor”) really doesn’t matter. A community like reddit, I think, would be so much more useful as a resource for activism and knowledge-sharing if only the culture of its mainstream were inclusive rather than hostile towards marginalized voices, including women and minorities. For example, the issues you mention of open internet, NSA spying, etc. affect everyone, not just the redditor in-crowd, and presumably would be of interest to a wider audience. And there are plenty more cases of injustice that don’t stand a chance of exciting passion among the redditor demographic—I’m thinking feminism or issues of racial justice (to name another example from recent memory, the voting majority of redditors are convinced George Zimmerman is a hero). I don’t know how different reddit’s culture would be without the anonymity, but I agree it’s an interesting question.