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So, is it mere political correctness which prevents me from calling people "nigger"? Or, is it a desire to respect my fellow human beings? It's not about polit

So, is it mere political correctness which prevents me from calling people "nigger"? Or, is it a desire to respect my fellow human beings? It's not about political correctness. It's about not being a dick. I've said nothing about saying controversial things...I've called out intentional attacks by people with power on people with less power. White kids calling everybody nigger isn't an important discussion that needed to happen to further the discourse on race in America. It's a bunch of privileged white kids being little shits and perpetuating and endorsing centuries of oppression. So, yeah, anonymity is great. But, the culture of 4chan is often racist, misogynist, sexist, and homophobic. That's privileged people having fun reveling in their privilege at the expense of those with less power. I just don't see the appeal. Obviously, I'm not suggesting censorship (or maybe somebody has assumed I am, since I've been downvoted a bit). I'm suggesting that the casual culture of oppressive language as it is used by the mostly white, mostly middle class, people on 4chan is a negative for the world. And, I'm pointing it out for what it is. It always gets wrapped up in, "You just don't understand, it's funny!" But, minstrel shows were considered funny, too. It doesn't make it OK.

tw77 13y ago
But political correctness can prevent you from questioning progressive dogmas. Many of them are not born out by fact, but it is impolite to disagree with them. If the facts don't agree with my opinions, I change my mind. But that rapidly pushes you into thought-criminal territory in today's world.
- SwellJoe 13y ago
  OK, I think maybe we're talking past one another. So, let's get specific: What "progressive dogma" have I brought up that you believe we should be able to discuss and that you should be able to disagree with?
  - tw77 13y ago
    You haven't brought up any. But some are pretty common. I'm just arguing that PC prevents free thought and the dispassionate analysis of evidence, since it applies moral values to the evidence itself and it prejudicially strikes out some plausible hypotheses. For example, I don't buy that racism is the sole reason for the underrepresentation of some ethnic minority groups in tech because other ethnic minority groups that have been historically oppressed and discriminated against are overrepresented in tech. But if someone posted an article about how "tech is racist" and I said "I'm not sure that tech is racist", then someone could call me a racist and I could lose my job if someone got offended. So anonymity is essential for exploring non-progressive ideas and, I think, for getting closer to truth. There are lots of non-progressive/anti-progressive ideas that are plausible given the available evidence, but nobody will discuss under their real name.
    - SwellJoe 13y ago
      Ah, so I see I have given the impression that I believe anonymous forums shouldn't be allowed to exist (via some mechanism...not sure what, maybe the state?). That was not my intention; you aren't the only one to take this thread down that path. I lean anarchist...I don't want anyone forcing anybody to do anything, and I think anonymous forums are necessary. But, I also think 4chan revels in its privilege, and many of its participants are pretentious enough to believe they are above gender and race and identity, when they're really just reproducing the same patterns white men have practiced at every point in history when someone asked to be treated equally. It doesn't mean they should be censored. But, I think people should feel empowered to call it out for what it is...but calling it out gets shouted down pretty quick on 4chan (I can hear the cries of "white knight" from here).
    - codygman 13y ago
      You would hardly be fired for saying "Tech is not racist". I'd argue that you are wrong as would others, but you're just being hyperbolic.
      - SwellJoe 13y ago
        Actually, I would argue that his opinion that tech is not racist is in the mainstream. It would not cause an eyebrow to be raised in the vast majority of tech offices I've worked in. That's the funny thing about a lot of these arguments against "political correctness"; the opinions most folks who use that term hold are the ones that white men have held for centuries. It's not at all surprising that there are still lots of white men that hold those opinions. And, given the incredible imbalance of white men in tech (even taking into account the Asian factor, the US tech industry is still a strikingly white and male industry), it is not difficult to hold those old positions without ever being questioned or challenged on them. It's only because these views so rarely get challenged that it causes such a fierce response. Source: I was one of those white guys who thought tech was a super great place where anyone with the skills could get ahead and there was no glass ceiling for women and their was no reason black folks couldn't do great in the industry if they just had an interest in tech. I recognize all this because I was there. I just wish I had a better way to help other people understand how their privileged position makes it very difficult for them to see and understand why the tech industry has both an extremely sexist and white supremacist culture.
GhotiFish 13y ago
It's political correctness. Nigger in particularly has had a nice and storied discussion on how arbitrary it's acceptability is. You think you're not being a dick, but your sensitivity is blinding you. I've called my friends things far worse than what nigger objectively means, but the social constructs around it are so bizarre as to make it taboo, but only taboo in my context. Just like sex is taboo. Just like drugs are taboo. Just like homosexuality was taboo (and remains taboo in some areas). Further, there's an aspect to 4chan you're not seeing, and it's how much they hate and punish the kind of narcissism you accuse them of. A net good. I've seen openly homosexual people posting on 4chan about their lifestyles with absolutely no condemnation. It is not an exception to a rule. You have mischaracterized this demographic. Badly.
- SwellJoe 13y ago
  4chan, like any diverse online community, has a lot of awesome people using it. And, yet, 4chan spawned this: http://jezebel.com/what-happens-when-a-13-year-old-4chan-cam-girl-grows-up-1443144696 http://jezebel.com/what-happens-when-a-13-year-old-4chan-cam... And, this: http://www.dailydot.com/society/adria-richards-4chan-raid-sendgrid-donglegate/ http://www.dailydot.com/society/adria-richards-4chan-raid-se... And, this: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/internet/2012/06/dear-internet-why-you-cant-have-anything-nice http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/internet/2012/06/dear-inte... I'm speaking of the culture of the place. Every individual user has the ability to not participate in some of the really awful shit that goes down...but, groupthink and a culture that celebrates the worst of it ("none of us are as cruel as all of us"), leads to some truly awful behavior. And, it is so often white males targeting women (and, worse, young girls). People with privilege are rarely aware of their privilege, and 4chan is a great exhibition of that. It's possibly useful as a tool for seeing just how much people don't see how awful their community can be, and how much oppressive behavior is tolerated and celebrated. We've got thousands of years of oppression to undo. I'm calling it out, not because I'm "sensitive", but because I've had some of this shit explained to me...I've had my own oppressive behavior called out to me. And, now that I see it, and have begun to understand it, it's my job as a white male ally in a centuries-old struggle to call it out when I see it. It's not white knighting, and it's not sensitivity. 4chan isn't hurting my feelings or making me mad. 4chan is just doing what white men have done throughout history: Enjoying their position of privilege to make fun of those with less power. And, I recognize it for what it is because I've done it, too. The only surprising thing about it is how much most 4channers think they aren't acting like every prior generation of white men in the face of being asked to treat women and people of color like equals. They genuinely believe they are a different breed, above race, and gender, and identity; all the while promoting the same old shit.

tw77 13y ago

But political correctness can prevent you from questioning progressive dogmas. Many of them are not born out by fact, but it is impolite to disagree with them. If the facts don't agree with my opinions, I change my mind. But that rapidly pushes you into thought-criminal territory in today's world.

SwellJoe 13y ago
OK, I think maybe we're talking past one another. So, let's get specific: What "progressive dogma" have I brought up that you believe we should be able to discuss and that you should be able to disagree with?
- tw77 13y ago
  You haven't brought up any. But some are pretty common. I'm just arguing that PC prevents free thought and the dispassionate analysis of evidence, since it applies moral values to the evidence itself and it prejudicially strikes out some plausible hypotheses. For example, I don't buy that racism is the sole reason for the underrepresentation of some ethnic minority groups in tech because other ethnic minority groups that have been historically oppressed and discriminated against are overrepresented in tech. But if someone posted an article about how "tech is racist" and I said "I'm not sure that tech is racist", then someone could call me a racist and I could lose my job if someone got offended. So anonymity is essential for exploring non-progressive ideas and, I think, for getting closer to truth. There are lots of non-progressive/anti-progressive ideas that are plausible given the available evidence, but nobody will discuss under their real name.
  - SwellJoe 13y ago
    Ah, so I see I have given the impression that I believe anonymous forums shouldn't be allowed to exist (via some mechanism...not sure what, maybe the state?). That was not my intention; you aren't the only one to take this thread down that path. I lean anarchist...I don't want anyone forcing anybody to do anything, and I think anonymous forums are necessary. But, I also think 4chan revels in its privilege, and many of its participants are pretentious enough to believe they are above gender and race and identity, when they're really just reproducing the same patterns white men have practiced at every point in history when someone asked to be treated equally. It doesn't mean they should be censored. But, I think people should feel empowered to call it out for what it is...but calling it out gets shouted down pretty quick on 4chan (I can hear the cries of "white knight" from here).
  - codygman 13y ago
    You would hardly be fired for saying "Tech is not racist". I'd argue that you are wrong as would others, but you're just being hyperbolic.
    - SwellJoe 13y ago
      Actually, I would argue that his opinion that tech is not racist is in the mainstream. It would not cause an eyebrow to be raised in the vast majority of tech offices I've worked in. That's the funny thing about a lot of these arguments against "political correctness"; the opinions most folks who use that term hold are the ones that white men have held for centuries. It's not at all surprising that there are still lots of white men that hold those opinions. And, given the incredible imbalance of white men in tech (even taking into account the Asian factor, the US tech industry is still a strikingly white and male industry), it is not difficult to hold those old positions without ever being questioned or challenged on them. It's only because these views so rarely get challenged that it causes such a fierce response. Source: I was one of those white guys who thought tech was a super great place where anyone with the skills could get ahead and there was no glass ceiling for women and their was no reason black folks couldn't do great in the industry if they just had an interest in tech. I recognize all this because I was there. I just wish I had a better way to help other people understand how their privileged position makes it very difficult for them to see and understand why the tech industry has both an extremely sexist and white supremacist culture.

GhotiFish 13y ago

It's political correctness. Nigger in particularly has had a nice and storied discussion on how arbitrary it's acceptability is. You think you're not being a dick, but your sensitivity is blinding you. I've called my friends things far worse than what nigger objectively means, but the social constructs around it are so bizarre as to make it taboo, but only taboo in my context. Just like sex is taboo. Just like drugs are taboo. Just like homosexuality was taboo (and remains taboo in some areas). Further, there's an aspect to 4chan you're not seeing, and it's how much they hate and punish the kind of narcissism you accuse them of. A net good. I've seen openly homosexual people posting on 4chan about their lifestyles with absolutely no condemnation. It is not an exception to a rule. You have mischaracterized this demographic. Badly.

SwellJoe 13y ago
4chan, like any diverse online community, has a lot of awesome people using it. And, yet, 4chan spawned this: http://jezebel.com/what-happens-when-a-13-year-old-4chan-cam-girl-grows-up-1443144696 http://jezebel.com/what-happens-when-a-13-year-old-4chan-cam... And, this: http://www.dailydot.com/society/adria-richards-4chan-raid-sendgrid-donglegate/ http://www.dailydot.com/society/adria-richards-4chan-raid-se... And, this: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/internet/2012/06/dear-internet-why-you-cant-have-anything-nice http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/internet/2012/06/dear-inte... I'm speaking of the culture of the place. Every individual user has the ability to not participate in some of the really awful shit that goes down...but, groupthink and a culture that celebrates the worst of it ("none of us are as cruel as all of us"), leads to some truly awful behavior. And, it is so often white males targeting women (and, worse, young girls). People with privilege are rarely aware of their privilege, and 4chan is a great exhibition of that. It's possibly useful as a tool for seeing just how much people don't see how awful their community can be, and how much oppressive behavior is tolerated and celebrated. We've got thousands of years of oppression to undo. I'm calling it out, not because I'm "sensitive", but because I've had some of this shit explained to me...I've had my own oppressive behavior called out to me. And, now that I see it, and have begun to understand it, it's my job as a white male ally in a centuries-old struggle to call it out when I see it. It's not white knighting, and it's not sensitivity. 4chan isn't hurting my feelings or making me mad. 4chan is just doing what white men have done throughout history: Enjoying their position of privilege to make fun of those with less power. And, I recognize it for what it is because I've done it, too. The only surprising thing about it is how much most 4channers think they aren't acting like every prior generation of white men in the face of being asked to treat women and people of color like equals. They genuinely believe they are a different breed, above race, and gender, and identity; all the while promoting the same old shit.