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Some folks probably should feel tied down by their reputation/ego. Casual sexism, misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc. for a laugh brings the entire discussion do

Some folks probably should feel tied down by their reputation/ego. Casual sexism, misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc. for a laugh brings the entire discussion down to a level that I don't have any desire to participate in. I think anonymity is awesome. But, 4chan is often on par with YouTube in terms of the quality of its comments. Sure, there's some smart kids there (some younger friends of mine are regularly channers), and a few not-as-smart oldtimers who ought to have grown out of it by now. Notice several comments spend a lot of time talking about the people who call out sexism (as white knights, for instance). They're the kind of sexist who thinks that because they don't believe they are sexist, when they say sexist things, it's not actually sexist. The same kind of racist that says racist things, but because they have a black friend who's totally cool with it, it's all good. The kind of folks that do this are mostly young, mostly white, mostly middle class, and mostly assholes who should stop and think before they speak, whether it is an anonymous forum or not. Racist/sexist/misogynist/homophobic behavior is racist/sexist/misogynist/homophobic, and 4chan is full of it, on a scale that no non-anonymous forum would ever be.

GhotiFish 13y ago
I've seen too many discussion that didn't happen because people were stymied by political correctness. It's there because it's constantly stopped, and it should be there.
- SwellJoe 13y ago
  So, is it mere political correctness which prevents me from calling people "nigger"? Or, is it a desire to respect my fellow human beings? It's not about political correctness. It's about not being a dick. I've said nothing about saying controversial things...I've called out intentional attacks by people with power on people with less power. White kids calling everybody nigger isn't an important discussion that needed to happen to further the discourse on race in America. It's a bunch of privileged white kids being little shits and perpetuating and endorsing centuries of oppression. So, yeah, anonymity is great. But, the culture of 4chan is often racist, misogynist, sexist, and homophobic. That's privileged people having fun reveling in their privilege at the expense of those with less power. I just don't see the appeal. Obviously, I'm not suggesting censorship (or maybe somebody has assumed I am, since I've been downvoted a bit). I'm suggesting that the casual culture of oppressive language as it is used by the mostly white, mostly middle class, people on 4chan is a negative for the world. And, I'm pointing it out for what it is. It always gets wrapped up in, "You just don't understand, it's funny!" But, minstrel shows were considered funny, too. It doesn't make it OK.
  - tw77 13y ago
    But political correctness can prevent you from questioning progressive dogmas. Many of them are not born out by fact, but it is impolite to disagree with them. If the facts don't agree with my opinions, I change my mind. But that rapidly pushes you into thought-criminal territory in today's world.
    - SwellJoe 13y ago
      OK, I think maybe we're talking past one another. So, let's get specific: What "progressive dogma" have I brought up that you believe we should be able to discuss and that you should be able to disagree with?
      - tw77 13y ago
        You haven't brought up any. But some are pretty common. I'm just arguing that PC prevents free thought and the dispassionate analysis of evidence, since it applies moral values to the evidence itself and it prejudicially strikes out some plausible hypotheses. For example, I don't buy that racism is the sole reason for the underrepresentation of some ethnic minority groups in tech because other ethnic minority groups that have been historically oppressed and discriminated against are overrepresented in tech. But if someone posted an article about how "tech is racist" and I said "I'm not sure that tech is racist", then someone could call me a racist and I could lose my job if someone got offended. So anonymity is essential for exploring non-progressive ideas and, I think, for getting closer to truth. There are lots of non-progressive/anti-progressive ideas that are plausible given the available evidence, but nobody will discuss under their real name.
        SwellJoe 13y ago
        Ah, so I see I have given the impression that I believe anonymous forums shouldn't be allowed to exist (via some mechanism...not sure what, maybe the state?). That was not my intention; you aren't the only one to take this thread down that path. I lean anarchist...I don't want anyone forcing anybody to do anything, and I think anonymous forums are necessary. But, I also think 4chan revels in its privilege, and many of its participants are pretentious enough to believe they are above gender and race and identity, when they're really just reproducing the same patterns white men have practiced at every point in history when someone asked to be treated equally. It doesn't mean they should be censored. But, I think people should feel empowered to call it out for what it is...but calling it out gets shouted down pretty quick on 4chan (I can hear the cries of "white knight" from here).
daliwali 13y ago
So you are saying that we should abandon freedom of expression and attach IDs to anyone who has anything to say, in order to instigate retribution against those who disagree with your worldview? How will this not lead to censorship (and self-censorship) and hugboxing? If you don't want to participate in an anonymous discussion, that's your choice, but don't try to deprive others of it.
- SwellJoe 13y ago
  Nope. Not what I said, at all. I said that several people on 4chan are assholes, and there's a culture that supports that assholery.
  - daliwali 13y ago
    There are assholes everywhere in this world, including HN. Your point? >Some folks probably should feel tied down by their reputation/ego. I'm pretty sure that implies that you don't want the "bigots" in your worldview to be able to express themselves anonymously.
    - SwellJoe 13y ago
      That was not my intention, but I can see how you might have taken it that way. I followed with, "brings the entire discussion down to a level that I don't have any desire to participate in." My implication was that I opt out of such discussions, and I think (much) less of those who participate in casual sexism, racism, and homophobia.

GhotiFish 13y ago

I've seen too many discussion that didn't happen because people were stymied by political correctness. It's there because it's constantly stopped, and it should be there.

SwellJoe 13y ago
So, is it mere political correctness which prevents me from calling people "nigger"? Or, is it a desire to respect my fellow human beings? It's not about political correctness. It's about not being a dick. I've said nothing about saying controversial things...I've called out intentional attacks by people with power on people with less power. White kids calling everybody nigger isn't an important discussion that needed to happen to further the discourse on race in America. It's a bunch of privileged white kids being little shits and perpetuating and endorsing centuries of oppression. So, yeah, anonymity is great. But, the culture of 4chan is often racist, misogynist, sexist, and homophobic. That's privileged people having fun reveling in their privilege at the expense of those with less power. I just don't see the appeal. Obviously, I'm not suggesting censorship (or maybe somebody has assumed I am, since I've been downvoted a bit). I'm suggesting that the casual culture of oppressive language as it is used by the mostly white, mostly middle class, people on 4chan is a negative for the world. And, I'm pointing it out for what it is. It always gets wrapped up in, "You just don't understand, it's funny!" But, minstrel shows were considered funny, too. It doesn't make it OK.
- tw77 13y ago
  But political correctness can prevent you from questioning progressive dogmas. Many of them are not born out by fact, but it is impolite to disagree with them. If the facts don't agree with my opinions, I change my mind. But that rapidly pushes you into thought-criminal territory in today's world.
  - SwellJoe 13y ago
    OK, I think maybe we're talking past one another. So, let's get specific: What "progressive dogma" have I brought up that you believe we should be able to discuss and that you should be able to disagree with?
    - tw77 13y ago
      You haven't brought up any. But some are pretty common. I'm just arguing that PC prevents free thought and the dispassionate analysis of evidence, since it applies moral values to the evidence itself and it prejudicially strikes out some plausible hypotheses. For example, I don't buy that racism is the sole reason for the underrepresentation of some ethnic minority groups in tech because other ethnic minority groups that have been historically oppressed and discriminated against are overrepresented in tech. But if someone posted an article about how "tech is racist" and I said "I'm not sure that tech is racist", then someone could call me a racist and I could lose my job if someone got offended. So anonymity is essential for exploring non-progressive ideas and, I think, for getting closer to truth. There are lots of non-progressive/anti-progressive ideas that are plausible given the available evidence, but nobody will discuss under their real name.
      - SwellJoe 13y ago
        Ah, so I see I have given the impression that I believe anonymous forums shouldn't be allowed to exist (via some mechanism...not sure what, maybe the state?). That was not my intention; you aren't the only one to take this thread down that path. I lean anarchist...I don't want anyone forcing anybody to do anything, and I think anonymous forums are necessary. But, I also think 4chan revels in its privilege, and many of its participants are pretentious enough to believe they are above gender and race and identity, when they're really just reproducing the same patterns white men have practiced at every point in history when someone asked to be treated equally. It doesn't mean they should be censored. But, I think people should feel empowered to call it out for what it is...but calling it out gets shouted down pretty quick on 4chan (I can hear the cries of "white knight" from here).

daliwali 13y ago

So you are saying that we should abandon freedom of expression and attach IDs to anyone who has anything to say, in order to instigate retribution against those who disagree with your worldview? How will this not lead to censorship (and self-censorship) and hugboxing? If you don't want to participate in an anonymous discussion, that's your choice, but don't try to deprive others of it.

SwellJoe 13y ago
Nope. Not what I said, at all. I said that several people on 4chan are assholes, and there's a culture that supports that assholery.
- daliwali 13y ago
  There are assholes everywhere in this world, including HN. Your point? >Some folks probably should feel tied down by their reputation/ego. I'm pretty sure that implies that you don't want the "bigots" in your worldview to be able to express themselves anonymously.
  - SwellJoe 13y ago
    That was not my intention, but I can see how you might have taken it that way. I followed with, "brings the entire discussion down to a level that I don't have any desire to participate in." My implication was that I opt out of such discussions, and I think (much) less of those who participate in casual sexism, racism, and homophobia.