4 ms·

He fails to draw the real crucial issue out -- by pretending that all children have equal abilities, we try to force them all onto a track that only a third of

He fails to draw the real crucial issue out -- by pretending that all children have equal abilities, we try to force them all onto a track that only a third of them will do well on. A high school student is in a much better situation with a realistic assessment of his abilities. If you struggle with math, you aren't much of a conversationalist, and you have trouble remembering things, you would do well to find a career that you can succeed at through nothing but persistence and hard work. Also, you shouldn't borrow $50k to go to college.

ahoyhere 17y ago
Is the putative student "bad at math" or "bad at math the way it's taught in high school, perhaps even by a certain teacher"? I thought I was bad at math and lived under that shadow for a very long time. Then I grew up and realized I'm actually very good at math, I just had terrible teachers/source materials. All of these generalized statements are questionable by dent of gross simplification. PS - where is a university education only $50K?
- a-priori 17y ago
  where is a university education only $50K? Canada, as an example. Other places, such as many places in Europe, it's "free" (i.e, publicly funded).
  - mediaman 17y ago
    America, too. Not everyone goes to $40k a year private schools. A degree from an in-state school can be had for well within $50k.
    - menloparkbum 17y ago
      Are you sure? I thought this, too, but just checked out my home state's University (Minnesota). It's a typical big state school and tuition and fees for 4 years are pushing $45K. I was surprised because I assumed total tuition was closer to $30K.
      - stonemetal 17y ago
        Texas at least. tuition at the University of Texas is $4600 a semester full time. Pretty much every public university in Texas is about the same or better.
      - mediaman 17y ago
        University of Kansas clocks in at $29k for four years; UIC in Chicago is about $25k (plus some fees that might bring it closer to 30). UMN does appear to be pretty expensive relative to other schools for in-state tuition, but it's a quite reputable school so maybe they've earned a premium.
        menloparkbum 17y ago
        Hm. When I look at UIC's tuition calculator, it's giving me $6757 per semester for undergrad engineering tuition and fees per semester. Over 8 semesters, that's ~54K. Other departments are slightly cheaper but all were over $6K/semester. http://www.uic.edu/depts/oar/undergrad/tuition_undergrad.html http://www.uic.edu/depts/oar/undergrad/tuition_undergrad.htm... When I revisited UMN, it is $4200/semester... but that seems to be without fees. http://onestop.umn.edu/finances/costs_and_tuition/tuition_and_fees/index.html http://onestop.umn.edu/finances/costs_and_tuition/tuition_an... I first saw the UMN tuition on this site, which calculates it for the year: http://www.getreadyforcollege.org/sPagesGR/TuitionChart.cfm?State=MN&pageID=101&1534-D83A_1933715A=7773465fb3fe383110b2c64181b8236e16a3a78c http://www.getreadyforcollege.org/sPagesGR/TuitionChart.cfm?... That's more time than I really wanted to spend on this topic, but I do find it interesting that even state schools can cost way more than I would have suspected.
      - Retric 17y ago
        I had people from out of state going to my school, because they said it was cheaper for them to pay out of state tuition there than any of their state schools. Shepherd University/semester (09 to 10) IN-STATE Tuition and Fees $ 2,617.00 OUT-OF-STATE Tuition and Fees $ 6,787.00 + (optional) Room 1,945.00 Board (19 Meal Plan) 1,669.00 So four years instate would be 21k + books (excluding normal living expenses.)
- tokenadult 17y ago
  Is the putative student "bad at math" or "bad at math the way it's taught in high school, perhaps even by a certain teacher"? Here is one of my favorite quotations about mathematics teaching, used as my signature tagline on the first online forum where I used the screen name "tokenadult": "The proper thing for a parent to say is, 'I did badly at mathematics, but I had a very bad teacher. I wish I had had a good one.'" W. W. Sawyer, Vision in Elementary Mathematics (1964), page 5. Yes, the book from which the quotation comes is very good, and very good for learners with a visual learning style.
- viergroupie 17y ago
  >Is the putative student "bad at math" or "bad at math the way it's taught in high school, perhaps even by a certain teacher"? It could also be a mismatch between someone's personality and the sort of math kids get taught. I did poorly in most of my math classes in high school and college. After failing a few classes, decided I was hopelessly "bad at math", and left the topic alone. A few years I took an abstract algebra class on a lark and really enjoyed it. In hindsight, I did poorly in my earlier math classes because I was undisciplined and really disliked memorizing disconnected tricks and formulas. Abstract algebra, on the other hand, was more elegant, conceptual and fun to learn. Doing well in one class punctured my myth of inability and gave me the confidence to properly learn linear algebra (and take some other interesting classes).
KolHaKavod 17y ago
"If you struggle with math, you aren't much of a conversationalist, and you have trouble remembering things" Since when have any of these things been a requirement for an academic career?
- gnaritas 17y ago
  He wasn't talking about an academic career. Most people don't go to college for an academic career, they go because they think it'll lead to a nice private sector career. If that's unlikely to happen because of your aptitude, it'd be good to know that before wasting all that money on college. Most people don't need college, they need a vocational school where they can learn a trade or skill.
lutorm 17y ago
This comes perilously close to "the soft bigotry of low expectations". What you are saying is true, your assessment of your abilities need to be grounded in reality, but it's also true that if you think you can succeed through hard work, you are much more likely to do so, regardless of the actual nature of intelligence. See research by Carol Dweck et al. This is an instance where the truth really can hurt you.

ahoyhere 17y ago

Is the putative student "bad at math" or "bad at math the way it's taught in high school, perhaps even by a certain teacher"? I thought I was bad at math and lived under that shadow for a very long time. Then I grew up and realized I'm actually very good at math, I just had terrible teachers/source materials. All of these generalized statements are questionable by dent of gross simplification. PS - where is a university education only $50K?

a-priori 17y ago
where is a university education only $50K? Canada, as an example. Other places, such as many places in Europe, it's "free" (i.e, publicly funded).
- mediaman 17y ago
  America, too. Not everyone goes to $40k a year private schools. A degree from an in-state school can be had for well within $50k.
  - menloparkbum 17y ago
    Are you sure? I thought this, too, but just checked out my home state's University (Minnesota). It's a typical big state school and tuition and fees for 4 years are pushing $45K. I was surprised because I assumed total tuition was closer to $30K.
    - stonemetal 17y ago
      Texas at least. tuition at the University of Texas is $4600 a semester full time. Pretty much every public university in Texas is about the same or better.
    - mediaman 17y ago
      University of Kansas clocks in at $29k for four years; UIC in Chicago is about $25k (plus some fees that might bring it closer to 30). UMN does appear to be pretty expensive relative to other schools for in-state tuition, but it's a quite reputable school so maybe they've earned a premium.
      - menloparkbum 17y ago
        Hm. When I look at UIC's tuition calculator, it's giving me $6757 per semester for undergrad engineering tuition and fees per semester. Over 8 semesters, that's ~54K. Other departments are slightly cheaper but all were over $6K/semester. http://www.uic.edu/depts/oar/undergrad/tuition_undergrad.html http://www.uic.edu/depts/oar/undergrad/tuition_undergrad.htm... When I revisited UMN, it is $4200/semester... but that seems to be without fees. http://onestop.umn.edu/finances/costs_and_tuition/tuition_and_fees/index.html http://onestop.umn.edu/finances/costs_and_tuition/tuition_an... I first saw the UMN tuition on this site, which calculates it for the year: http://www.getreadyforcollege.org/sPagesGR/TuitionChart.cfm?State=MN&pageID=101&1534-D83A_1933715A=7773465fb3fe383110b2c64181b8236e16a3a78c http://www.getreadyforcollege.org/sPagesGR/TuitionChart.cfm?... That's more time than I really wanted to spend on this topic, but I do find it interesting that even state schools can cost way more than I would have suspected.
    - Retric 17y ago
      I had people from out of state going to my school, because they said it was cheaper for them to pay out of state tuition there than any of their state schools. Shepherd University/semester (09 to 10) IN-STATE Tuition and Fees $ 2,617.00 OUT-OF-STATE Tuition and Fees $ 6,787.00 + (optional) Room 1,945.00 Board (19 Meal Plan) 1,669.00 So four years instate would be 21k + books (excluding normal living expenses.)
tokenadult 17y ago
Is the putative student "bad at math" or "bad at math the way it's taught in high school, perhaps even by a certain teacher"? Here is one of my favorite quotations about mathematics teaching, used as my signature tagline on the first online forum where I used the screen name "tokenadult": "The proper thing for a parent to say is, 'I did badly at mathematics, but I had a very bad teacher. I wish I had had a good one.'" W. W. Sawyer, Vision in Elementary Mathematics (1964), page 5. Yes, the book from which the quotation comes is very good, and very good for learners with a visual learning style.
viergroupie 17y ago
>Is the putative student "bad at math" or "bad at math the way it's taught in high school, perhaps even by a certain teacher"? It could also be a mismatch between someone's personality and the sort of math kids get taught. I did poorly in most of my math classes in high school and college. After failing a few classes, decided I was hopelessly "bad at math", and left the topic alone. A few years I took an abstract algebra class on a lark and really enjoyed it. In hindsight, I did poorly in my earlier math classes because I was undisciplined and really disliked memorizing disconnected tricks and formulas. Abstract algebra, on the other hand, was more elegant, conceptual and fun to learn. Doing well in one class punctured my myth of inability and gave me the confidence to properly learn linear algebra (and take some other interesting classes).

KolHaKavod 17y ago

"If you struggle with math, you aren't much of a conversationalist, and you have trouble remembering things" Since when have any of these things been a requirement for an academic career?

gnaritas 17y ago
He wasn't talking about an academic career. Most people don't go to college for an academic career, they go because they think it'll lead to a nice private sector career. If that's unlikely to happen because of your aptitude, it'd be good to know that before wasting all that money on college. Most people don't need college, they need a vocational school where they can learn a trade or skill.

lutorm 17y ago

This comes perilously close to "the soft bigotry of low expectations". What you are saying is true, your assessment of your abilities need to be grounded in reality, but it's also true that if you think you can succeed through hard work, you are much more likely to do so, regardless of the actual nature of intelligence. See research by Carol Dweck et al. This is an instance where the truth really can hurt you.