5 ms·

So I understand the points you're making and I appreciate your candor, but why not go all-in on cryptographic currencies? I am tempted to take apart your propo

by sounds 13y ago

So I understand the points you're making and I appreciate your candor, but why not go all-in on cryptographic currencies? I am tempted to take apart your proposed solution point-by-point but I'll wait. Crypto currency apparently is exactly what you want, so can you explain why you are instead attempting to achieve the same through ISO and a collaborative bank revolt against the "established banks"? (Collaborative bank revolt: a vastly simplified explanation of your proposed solution.)

contingencies 13y ago
Your question boils down to: "Why not replace (insert hugely established system) with (completely new system)"? The answer to this one is obvious. In order to grow, a replacements need to interoperate, ie. provide an "upgrade path". Instead of holding something up as the one true solution we are betting on the trend, which is certain. Besides, cash will always be around. Cryptocurrencies, despite their huge number and numerous attractive properties, presently lack market depth, limiting both their stability as value stores and feasibility as trade instruments outside of rapid/realtime/automated exchange. Significant issues with the dominant one (Bitcoin) make it difficult to implement securely, hard for non-technical users to properly understand or trust (there is no benevolent dictatorial regulator, as per their established national currencies/financial service providers), they require connectivity or blockchain storage which is unvailable in much of the world's devices, and so on and so forth. A parallel to your suggestion is the example of existing community currencies, which are essentially geographically bound equivalents of cryptocurrencies with an often more moralistic focus. I have been in contact with these groups and associations thereof, plus theorists in the area, and my understanding is that many face challenges in the same areas as Bitcoin; ie. new user education, balance of trade and interoperation with conventional established systems. Indeed, they are developing an inter-exchange protocol at present known as CXP. As for your vast simplification, the best (from a moral standpoint) and hardest kind of change to reverse (from a potential opponent standpoint) is that which is is completely decentralized; an 'opt-in' from the edge nodes. I think this is what people are proposing in many spheres right now. All roads lead to Rome.
- atweiden 13y ago
  > Significant issues with the dominant one (Bitcoin) make it difficult to implement securely, hard for non-technical users to properly understand or trust (there is no benevolent dictatorial regulator, as per their established national currencies/financial service providers), they require connectivity or blockchain storage which is unvailable in much of the world's devices, and so on and so forth. Download and install Electrum [1]. Open Electrum. Write down the 12 words. Done. There's your 100% non-technical Bitcoin wallet in three easy steps. Just takes pen and paper. Or, memorize it instead. Instant, secure brainwallet. No electricity, no Internet, no hardware and no software. Starts in seconds and syncs across Windows, Mac, Linux and Android devices. [1]: http://electrum.org http://electrum.org
  - TheLegace 13y ago
    My only issue with something like this, since no one is "in charge" of an account people will fail to remember their wallet or password. If they put large amounts of money and by chance they cannot access their wallet for whatever reasons who is going to give them their money back or is that money gone forever? Doesn't that also mean eventually we will loose track of a fair number of bitcoins?
    - atweiden 13y ago
      Would a banker be able to replace your lost or stolen cash? If you're worried you might lose your Electrum wallet, write down the 12 words on several sheets of paper. Inscribe them in metal. Put them in a document, and put the document in TrueCrypt. Upload it to Dropbox. It's as easy as managing your digital music collection.
    - rakoo 13y ago
      That money is gone forever. It is your money, you are responsible for it. No one will be able to "give your money back", because you didn't give your money to anyone. If you fear you might lose your password, back it up. Store it in a safe. Send it to someone you trust. Tatoo it on your forearm (although this is not really secretive) Heck, if you _really_ want to be sure to have someone who could give the money back to you, just give it to someone you trust. Family, friends... or a Bitcoin bank. But if you do that, we're back to square one.
jellicle 13y ago
> why not go all-in on cryptographic currencies? Because with an armload of cryptographic currencies, and $5, you can buy a cup of coffee at your local coffee shop?
- MacsHeadroom 13y ago
  It takes about 0.01 bitcoin to buy a $5 cup of coffee. But decimal placement is irrelevant and cryptocurrencies are intangible, silly.
- dcposch 13y ago
  No, with 0.01 BTC and nothing else, I can buy coffee at my local coffee shop. The Coupa Cafe in Palo Alto accepts Bitcoin. On a more serious note: Bitcoin has steadily gained acceptance as a form of payment. In 2010, a guy bought a pizza for 10000 BTC. It was a one-off transaction between two Bitcoin enthusiasts, but a milestone: the first purchase of real goods. In 2011 and 2012, Bitcoin matured from enthusiasts to a wider audience, albeit mostly for illegal uses. The biggest was Silk Road. Now, in 2013, Bitcoin is starting to be accepted by regular, legal businesses. Shopify, Coupa Cafe, WordPress, Reddit, OkCupid, and new merchants joining every week. There are startups like Coinbase devoted to making this as easy as possible. Someone in Vancouver set up an ATM that takes Bitcoin and gives you cash. Sure, there's a long way to go. But acceptance has been improving rapidly. And Bitcoin has features--very low transaction costs, no "chargebacks", etc--that make it inherently attractive to sellers. Instead of focusing on "where the puck is", we should skate "where the puck is going to be".
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  Or 9 acres of land in Florida: http://bitcoinmagazine.com/6939/seans-outpost-announces-satoshi-forest/ http://bitcoinmagazine.com/6939/seans-outpost-announces-sato...

by sounds 13y ago

contingencies 13y ago

Your question boils down to: "Why not replace (insert hugely established system) with (completely new system)"? The answer to this one is obvious. In order to grow, a replacements need to interoperate, ie. provide an "upgrade path". Instead of holding something up as the one true solution we are betting on the trend, which is certain. Besides, cash will always be around. Cryptocurrencies, despite their huge number and numerous attractive properties, presently lack market depth, limiting both their stability as value stores and feasibility as trade instruments outside of rapid/realtime/automated exchange. Significant issues with the dominant one (Bitcoin) make it difficult to implement securely, hard for non-technical users to properly understand or trust (there is no benevolent dictatorial regulator, as per their established national currencies/financial service providers), they require connectivity or blockchain storage which is unvailable in much of the world's devices, and so on and so forth. A parallel to your suggestion is the example of existing community currencies, which are essentially geographically bound equivalents of cryptocurrencies with an often more moralistic focus. I have been in contact with these groups and associations thereof, plus theorists in the area, and my understanding is that many face challenges in the same areas as Bitcoin; ie. new user education, balance of trade and interoperation with conventional established systems. Indeed, they are developing an inter-exchange protocol at present known as CXP. As for your vast simplification, the best (from a moral standpoint) and hardest kind of change to reverse (from a potential opponent standpoint) is that which is is completely decentralized; an 'opt-in' from the edge nodes. I think this is what people are proposing in many spheres right now. All roads lead to Rome.

atweiden 13y ago
> Significant issues with the dominant one (Bitcoin) make it difficult to implement securely, hard for non-technical users to properly understand or trust (there is no benevolent dictatorial regulator, as per their established national currencies/financial service providers), they require connectivity or blockchain storage which is unvailable in much of the world's devices, and so on and so forth. Download and install Electrum [1]. Open Electrum. Write down the 12 words. Done. There's your 100% non-technical Bitcoin wallet in three easy steps. Just takes pen and paper. Or, memorize it instead. Instant, secure brainwallet. No electricity, no Internet, no hardware and no software. Starts in seconds and syncs across Windows, Mac, Linux and Android devices. [1]: http://electrum.org http://electrum.org
- TheLegace 13y ago
  My only issue with something like this, since no one is "in charge" of an account people will fail to remember their wallet or password. If they put large amounts of money and by chance they cannot access their wallet for whatever reasons who is going to give them their money back or is that money gone forever? Doesn't that also mean eventually we will loose track of a fair number of bitcoins?
  - atweiden 13y ago
    Would a banker be able to replace your lost or stolen cash? If you're worried you might lose your Electrum wallet, write down the 12 words on several sheets of paper. Inscribe them in metal. Put them in a document, and put the document in TrueCrypt. Upload it to Dropbox. It's as easy as managing your digital music collection.
  - rakoo 13y ago
    That money is gone forever. It is your money, you are responsible for it. No one will be able to "give your money back", because you didn't give your money to anyone. If you fear you might lose your password, back it up. Store it in a safe. Send it to someone you trust. Tatoo it on your forearm (although this is not really secretive) Heck, if you _really_ want to be sure to have someone who could give the money back to you, just give it to someone you trust. Family, friends... or a Bitcoin bank. But if you do that, we're back to square one.

jellicle 13y ago

> why not go all-in on cryptographic currencies? Because with an armload of cryptographic currencies, and $5, you can buy a cup of coffee at your local coffee shop?

MacsHeadroom 13y ago
It takes about 0.01 bitcoin to buy a $5 cup of coffee. But decimal placement is irrelevant and cryptocurrencies are intangible, silly.
dcposch 13y ago
No, with 0.01 BTC and nothing else, I can buy coffee at my local coffee shop. The Coupa Cafe in Palo Alto accepts Bitcoin. On a more serious note: Bitcoin has steadily gained acceptance as a form of payment. In 2010, a guy bought a pizza for 10000 BTC. It was a one-off transaction between two Bitcoin enthusiasts, but a milestone: the first purchase of real goods. In 2011 and 2012, Bitcoin matured from enthusiasts to a wider audience, albeit mostly for illegal uses. The biggest was Silk Road. Now, in 2013, Bitcoin is starting to be accepted by regular, legal businesses. Shopify, Coupa Cafe, WordPress, Reddit, OkCupid, and new merchants joining every week. There are startups like Coinbase devoted to making this as easy as possible. Someone in Vancouver set up an ATM that takes Bitcoin and gives you cash. Sure, there's a long way to go. But acceptance has been improving rapidly. And Bitcoin has features--very low transaction costs, no "chargebacks", etc--that make it inherently attractive to sellers. Instead of focusing on "where the puck is", we should skate "where the puck is going to be".
toomuchtodo 13y ago
Or 9 acres of land in Florida: http://bitcoinmagazine.com/6939/seans-outpost-announces-satoshi-forest/ http://bitcoinmagazine.com/6939/seans-outpost-announces-sato...