5 ms·

I've never really internalized this, but is part of the reason people like bitcoin because it's the online equivalent of cash - No fees plus guaranteed good fun

I've never really internalized this, but is part of the reason people like bitcoin because it's the online equivalent of cash - No fees plus guaranteed good funds? This article suggests that, but that doesn't make any sense to me. If THAT'S why you like bitcoin, man you're gonna LOVE what I've been building, it's actually the literal online version of cash.

sounds 13y ago
I'll take you at your word that you have something that can literally work as online cash. So you understand that this is a hard problem, lots of people have tried, etc. etc. etc. I can't decide yet whether to like bitcoin or hate it, but like it or not, there is now pressure on the banking industry to get their act together. It seems like karmic justice to me that after the 2008 bubble the banks are now facing renewed competition.
- tomasien 13y ago
  Big Bitcoin fan, I'm not going to edit my comment for the sake of being authentic but I wish I could. I just never considered that being an alternative to cash online was ever the point. An alternative to cash online needs 3 things, IMO (besides being something anyone can use). 1. Has to be secure enough for the person accepting the money to know they're getting "good funds", or money that actually exists. 2. Has to be fee-less. 3. Has to be convenient enough for anyone to use fast. We're doing that. I can demo what we're doing if you'd like, shoot me an email tommy@thecityswig.com, would LOVE your thoughts!
ye 13y ago
I doubt you will be able to create anything significantly better than BTC and altcoins. If your solution is not decentralized, you can stop right now.
- tomasien 13y ago
  It's entirely decentralized, but it's not a new currency, just a way to transfer it. You do have to have your money in a bank, but it can be roughly any bank (we support 70% of US banking customers now, working toward 90 by the years end). I'm sorry if my first comment came off like a criticism of Bitcoin, I love Bitcoin - I just never considered that being the online version of cash was part of its appeal. To me, it was being an alternative to government currency that was always what made it special.
- tomasien 13y ago
  If you're interested, I could demo what we're working on for you.
  - ye 13y ago
    I think you should demo it to all of us, not just me. One person's opinion shouldn't affect your project, since I can be very wrong.
    - tomasien 13y ago
      ABSOLUTELY going to demo it to the whole community, I can't wait to do that. Can not wait - but we're trying to get people who have demonstrated some knowledge of any facet of what we're doing just a few at a time, because when we release the demo to the whole community, it's got to be ready. I believe strongly in launch fast, but for a payments system, we have to define what "launch" means, you know?
dwaltrip 13y ago
Do you have any more information about your project that you can share?
- tomasien 13y ago
  It's a way to transfer money bank to bank exactly like cash - it's able to use security algorithms to determine whether the funds being transferred are "good funds" or not, and it doesn't require to know their bank account information, just their online banking credentials. It overcomes the two major hurdles that have traditionally existed - convenience and security of the merchant to know the funds will actually be there.
  - alexwright 13y ago
    So I'm guessing the application logs into a user's online banking interface? Or is there some WS API the banks are making available?
    - tomasien 13y ago
      Kind of, there's absolutely no standard way of doing it, you have to do it bank by bank, that's been our challenge but we're up to 70% inclusion! It's the same way Mint works, except we have to do a ton of other stuff to be compliant and to get the information we need.
- tomasien 13y ago
  If you want to see it, email me @ tommy@thecityswig.com , I'd be happy to show you! We're in a super alpha batch of customers right now trying to make sure everything is as it should be, but I'm really really making an effort to get hackers opinions about this.
PeterisP 13y ago
Where is the business in making a payment infrastructure (which costs money in maintenance, customer service and liabilities for fraud) with no fees? A payment service provider can earn money on payer fees, receiver fees (like creditcards) or 'float' (holding on to user's money for a few days). If I had a ready made system of literal online cash, instant and with no fees, then launching it wouldn't make any business sense. Bitcoin only got started because early adopters got distributed semi-free bitcoins, miners will get paid by fees on transactions in the future, and the bitcoin exchanges (which are a necessary part of the ecosystem) live off fees. Cash can exist because government is replacing worn-out bills and prosecuting counterfeiters without charging an explicit fee for that; and any large cash transactions will incur fees for transporting, counting and securing large piles of cash. A no-fee system still needs some profit motive for someone to sustain it.
- tomasien 13y ago
  It's extremely cheap to process payments when you're off the credit card rail, and the security costs can be mitigated down to very, very minimal amounts. Our model is the same as SaaS and will be extremely profitable while reducing the cost of processing payments by 85%-95% (and for some processing very low cost items primarily, as much as 99%). I'd love to talk more about this if your'e interested. tommy@thecityswig.com
  - PeterisP 13y ago
    A fee of a cent or so per transaction can be reasonable and profitable, if you go on a really large scale, then maybe a fraction of a cent. I was sceptical about the no-fee concepts or micropayments that would require fees below $0.0001/txn or so. Security costs are nontrivial depending on which markets you serve (and any 'winning' solution must serve all or most of them) - any system will have some rate of fraudulent payments, and at least in EU, any service provider will be liable for some of that - they'll have to refund their customers who were defrauded by someone else, get stolen credentials, etc.
    - tomasien 13y ago

sounds 13y ago

I'll take you at your word that you have something that can literally work as online cash. So you understand that this is a hard problem, lots of people have tried, etc. etc. etc. I can't decide yet whether to like bitcoin or hate it, but like it or not, there is now pressure on the banking industry to get their act together. It seems like karmic justice to me that after the 2008 bubble the banks are now facing renewed competition.

tomasien 13y ago
Big Bitcoin fan, I'm not going to edit my comment for the sake of being authentic but I wish I could. I just never considered that being an alternative to cash online was ever the point. An alternative to cash online needs 3 things, IMO (besides being something anyone can use). 1. Has to be secure enough for the person accepting the money to know they're getting "good funds", or money that actually exists. 2. Has to be fee-less. 3. Has to be convenient enough for anyone to use fast. We're doing that. I can demo what we're doing if you'd like, shoot me an email tommy@thecityswig.com, would LOVE your thoughts!

ye 13y ago

I doubt you will be able to create anything significantly better than BTC and altcoins. If your solution is not decentralized, you can stop right now.

tomasien 13y ago
It's entirely decentralized, but it's not a new currency, just a way to transfer it. You do have to have your money in a bank, but it can be roughly any bank (we support 70% of US banking customers now, working toward 90 by the years end). I'm sorry if my first comment came off like a criticism of Bitcoin, I love Bitcoin - I just never considered that being the online version of cash was part of its appeal. To me, it was being an alternative to government currency that was always what made it special.
tomasien 13y ago
If you're interested, I could demo what we're working on for you.
- ye 13y ago
  I think you should demo it to all of us, not just me. One person's opinion shouldn't affect your project, since I can be very wrong.
  - tomasien 13y ago
    ABSOLUTELY going to demo it to the whole community, I can't wait to do that. Can not wait - but we're trying to get people who have demonstrated some knowledge of any facet of what we're doing just a few at a time, because when we release the demo to the whole community, it's got to be ready. I believe strongly in launch fast, but for a payments system, we have to define what "launch" means, you know?

dwaltrip 13y ago

Do you have any more information about your project that you can share?

tomasien 13y ago
It's a way to transfer money bank to bank exactly like cash - it's able to use security algorithms to determine whether the funds being transferred are "good funds" or not, and it doesn't require to know their bank account information, just their online banking credentials. It overcomes the two major hurdles that have traditionally existed - convenience and security of the merchant to know the funds will actually be there.
- alexwright 13y ago
  So I'm guessing the application logs into a user's online banking interface? Or is there some WS API the banks are making available?
  - tomasien 13y ago
    Kind of, there's absolutely no standard way of doing it, you have to do it bank by bank, that's been our challenge but we're up to 70% inclusion! It's the same way Mint works, except we have to do a ton of other stuff to be compliant and to get the information we need.
tomasien 13y ago
If you want to see it, email me @ tommy@thecityswig.com , I'd be happy to show you! We're in a super alpha batch of customers right now trying to make sure everything is as it should be, but I'm really really making an effort to get hackers opinions about this.

PeterisP 13y ago

Where is the business in making a payment infrastructure (which costs money in maintenance, customer service and liabilities for fraud) with no fees? A payment service provider can earn money on payer fees, receiver fees (like creditcards) or 'float' (holding on to user's money for a few days). If I had a ready made system of literal online cash, instant and with no fees, then launching it wouldn't make any business sense. Bitcoin only got started because early adopters got distributed semi-free bitcoins, miners will get paid by fees on transactions in the future, and the bitcoin exchanges (which are a necessary part of the ecosystem) live off fees. Cash can exist because government is replacing worn-out bills and prosecuting counterfeiters without charging an explicit fee for that; and any large cash transactions will incur fees for transporting, counting and securing large piles of cash. A no-fee system still needs some profit motive for someone to sustain it.

tomasien 13y ago
It's extremely cheap to process payments when you're off the credit card rail, and the security costs can be mitigated down to very, very minimal amounts. Our model is the same as SaaS and will be extremely profitable while reducing the cost of processing payments by 85%-95% (and for some processing very low cost items primarily, as much as 99%). I'd love to talk more about this if your'e interested. tommy@thecityswig.com
- PeterisP 13y ago
  A fee of a cent or so per transaction can be reasonable and profitable, if you go on a really large scale, then maybe a fraction of a cent. I was sceptical about the no-fee concepts or micropayments that would require fees below $0.0001/txn or so. Security costs are nontrivial depending on which markets you serve (and any 'winning' solution must serve all or most of them) - any system will have some rate of fraudulent payments, and at least in EU, any service provider will be liable for some of that - they'll have to refund their customers who were defrauded by someone else, get stolen credentials, etc.
  - tomasien 13y ago