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You can have cute little Norwegian jails with light sentences when the population is Norwegians. But America is not Norway. We have a large underclass of people
by a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
You can have cute little Norwegian jails with light sentences when the population is Norwegians. But America is not Norway. We have a large underclass of people capable of destroying whole communities. Have you seen those pictures of Detroit in ruins? Crime in the 1970s got out of control. Stuff like this played a role in turning it around.
- mschuster91 13y agoDoes the stupidity of politicians to adequately address these problems warrant human rights violations? I don't believe so!
- justanother 13y ago[ citation needed ]
- sillysaurus2 13y agoCrime in the 1970s got out of control. Stuff like this played a role in turning it around. Does anyone have any data to back this claim up?
- mschuster91 13y agoYeah, the decline in murder counts, for example.
- sillysaurus2 13y agohttp://i.imgur.com/S5QjFxC.png http://i.imgur.com/S5QjFxC.png Does anyone know of any research showing that the decline in murder counts is primarily due to harsher penalties?
- protomyth 13y agoI'm sure there (check the prison union website) is but books like Freakanomics give different reasons (legalized abortions).
- lostlogin 13y agoAbout this time someone always links to the lead and crime story. And because its a good article I'll link to it now. http://m.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline http://m.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link...
- clarky07 13y agoA lot of people attribute it to Roe v Wade[1]. Less unwanted babies growing up in environments that lead to a life of crime. [1] see Freakonomics
- pfedor 13y agoFor example, Steven Pinker looks into this a little in "The Better Angels of Our Nature", long story short there's nothing conclusive, and a sufficiently motivated person can find reasons to doubt it (e.g., the big drop in crime happened some ten years after the ramp up of incarceration rates, Canada experienced a similar decline in crime over that period without the corresponding increase in prison population), however, Pinker himself thinks that when all is said and done it seems likely that incarceration was one of the reasons. One other contributing factor was a large increase in the size of police forces during Clinton's presidency. On top of that, he argues the culture just for some reason shifted to being less violent. (I want to also mention that he debunks quite convincingly the theory that the decrease in crime had anything to do with legalizing abortion.)
- protomyth 13y agoCheck the CDC website, it has the stats. Violent crime has been in decline in the US since the 1970s. (Down voted for pointing out where to get the stats - very funny - must be DOJ folks)
- sillysaurus2 13y agoDown voted for pointing out where to get the stats Probably best to just assume it was an accident. I've done it more than once on mobile.
- protomyth 13y agoI wish the up arrow was bigger and the down arrow was moved after the [link]. It would save a lot of hassle and provide a guidance that up is nicer than down.
- jackpirate 13y agoEveryone agrees that violent crime is in decline. But the cause is a hotly disputed issue. I personally don't find compelling the idea that tough on crime laws are the cause.
- protomyth 13y agoWell, quite a lot of politicians and pundits seem to think otherwise. It is getting a bit tiresome. Also, I was responding to someone who wanted a citation of the stats. Freakanomics has a long section on it that contradicts Gladwell and I am inclined to believe the Freakanomics since they back it up with stats. This isn't scientific but It just seems like the 70's had a very chaotic vibe with a lot of external stuff hitting the US. The economy wasn't strong and we were going into a massive transition (factory -> office). Nixon (scandal & economy) and Carter (personified weak) didn't help a whole lot. A lot of in decline thinking causes a lot of unrest and crime. I would rank most tough crime laws as a cause not a cure.
- pswenson 13y agoyou are defending this insanity? did you read the link?
- a8da6b0c91d 13y agoI won't specifically defend life sentences for non-violent crimes, but I would defend very harsh sentences for repeat offenses. The profiled people demonstrate terribly poor self restraint and judgment. I strongly suspect they were ongoing severe burdens on their communities in many unmentioned ways.
- sukuriant 13y ago> I strongly suspect they were ongoing severe burdens on their communities in many unmentioned ways. You're painting a picture that's not connected at all with the information we've been provided and you're using it to support your personal stance. Yes, the ACLU article is presenting their story in the opposite way; but just because they're painting these people in a positive light doesn't mean that they're hiding a series of continual, unrepentant actions of which these particular crimes are the ones they were caught for. In fact, in one of the cases, the article argues that the judge didn't want to give the sentence that he gave, but his hands were tied by standards.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- alan_cx 13y agoLife in jail for poor restrain and judgement? Are you trying to be funny? Should you get life for your post, which shows poor judgement and no ability to restrain it?
- jonah 13y agoCrime is a byproduct of a broken social system, not a cause.
- guelo 13y agoWhat is it about Norwegians that's different from this "large underclass"? Just come out and say it.
- bilbo0s 13y agoI don't think he likes black people or Hispanics. To be fair... that makes him no different than a lot of Americans. Though he may be in the minority here on HN.
- mschuster91 13y agoI see the noun "underclass" here more as a factual description. Blacks and latinos are (especially in NYC!) treated like 3rd-class citizens, and they're far more likely to end up in jail for stuff a white person would just get a slap on the wrist.
- coldtea 13y ago>But America is not Norway. I wonder why that is... Perhaps this attitude has something to do about it? >We have a large underclass of people capable of destroying whole communities. Where "large underclass of people" means black, latino and generally poor, and "whole communities" means cozy, middle class existance. And destroying means "stealing a wallet from a hotel" or "borrowing a van", clearly acts that should be punished with life sentences.
- rktymnrml 13y agoNever heard of a gang have you.
- vacri 13y agoNorwegians comprise a mere 0.6% of the population of Europe.