4 ms·

I like how the title indicates that educated = job. Correlation Does Not Imply Causation

by lukasm 13y ago

lsc 13y ago
From one perspective, the title seems to be juxtaposing "educated" and "jobless" to say that these folks worked hard and got an education, and still are jobless. This angle works on several levels; you know, the 'protestant work ethic' would say these are good people because they worked hard to get through college. From a capitalist perspective, well, traditionally you go to college with the expectation that you will be able to get a white-collar job afterwards, and if that is no longer true, well, it's big, important news. From another perspective, the title says you should care about these folks because they are educated, middle-class kids, just like you or your kids. The idea here is that your average upper-middle class person probably doesn't have as much sympathy for the unemployed people in the lower classes. But if you frame the situation as general downward social mobility for the middle classes, it looks a lot more alarming (I mean, to other middle-class people)
- lukasm 13y ago
  True that, but my point is, it's really bad that journalist are trying preserve a false assumption that college is a proxy to a white-collar job. Kids are constantly hearing that they have to do good in school so later on they will be rewarded. That's intuitive, but not true. I managed to change my thinking on 3rd year. I stopped optimizing for high grade if there is no value. It's hard if you hear for 20 years the opposite.
  - lsc 13y ago
    >True that, but my point is, it's really bad that journalist are trying preserve a false assumption that college is a proxy to a white-collar job I thought the journalist was directly pointing out that this assumption was not as true as it once was. They were pointing that out in a very "this is shocking" kind of way... but it /is/ shocking. The vast majority of students go to college thinking that they will be able to get a white-collar job upon graduation. The only way that thinking will change is with more articles like this. The other thing to consider is that there is still an extremely strong correlation between having a degree and having a white-collar job. We can argue on what direction causation runs, but the correlation is inarguable.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      There are many jobs that you won't even be considered without a degree. Her example is one of them. In most European countries, nursing is a degree that shares part of the education with medicine.
      - lsc 13y ago
        Yeah. Speaking as someone who doesn't have a degree, I'm not sure that I'd get much any of a raise as a SysAdmin/systems person if I got a degree; probably not any more of a raise than I'd get for that much more experience, anyhow. But a degree would help a lot if I decided to change jobs, or even get a professional licence of some sort. For example, getting a real-estate licence, something I've considered in the course of researching my own investments, is possible without a degree, but more difficult. A degree would also help me move into management in another person's company, the traditional upwards path for aging computer operators. A degree would also come in handy if I want to emigrate to a first-world country before I become rich. Again, it's not required, but the process is rather longer and more nasty without a degree. I'm not saying a degree has zero value. It doesn't have infinite value, though, and the cost of a degree is not zero. To bring the conversation back to me, I got out of high school in '97. I immediately got a really good programming/sysadmin job because, well, it was 1997. They were hiring any idiot with a pulse. I was able to turn that opportunity into a solid reputation with solid experience that I was able to use to remain employed through the crash. If I had gone to college, and got out in 2001? I bet I would have been unemployed for another five years after graduating. The job market for people with my skillset was brutal. I think that if you have a good chance to start your career? you should take it, even if that means delaying school. Of course, if you have a chance to go to school for free, and that chance will go away if you don't take it right away? you should take that, too... but I think the former is more common than the latter. Usually, if you can go to school now, you can go to school four years from now, but it's dramatically easier to start your career when there is a lot of demand in your field. Now, I'm mostly speaking of finances. there is a psychological aspect to school, too. There is value to learning how to fit in, but again, that value is not infinite, and the cost is not zero.

I like how the title indicates that educated = job. Correlation Does Not Imply Causation

by lukasm 13y ago

I like how the title indicates that educated = job. Correlation Does Not Imply Causation

lsc 13y ago

From one perspective, the title seems to be juxtaposing "educated" and "jobless" to say that these folks worked hard and got an education, and still are jobless. This angle works on several levels; you know, the 'protestant work ethic' would say these are good people because they worked hard to get through college. From a capitalist perspective, well, traditionally you go to college with the expectation that you will be able to get a white-collar job afterwards, and if that is no longer true, well, it's big, important news. From another perspective, the title says you should care about these folks because they are educated, middle-class kids, just like you or your kids. The idea here is that your average upper-middle class person probably doesn't have as much sympathy for the unemployed people in the lower classes. But if you frame the situation as general downward social mobility for the middle classes, it looks a lot more alarming (I mean, to other middle-class people)

lukasm 13y ago
True that, but my point is, it's really bad that journalist are trying preserve a false assumption that college is a proxy to a white-collar job. Kids are constantly hearing that they have to do good in school so later on they will be rewarded. That's intuitive, but not true. I managed to change my thinking on 3rd year. I stopped optimizing for high grade if there is no value. It's hard if you hear for 20 years the opposite.
- lsc 13y ago
  >True that, but my point is, it's really bad that journalist are trying preserve a false assumption that college is a proxy to a white-collar job I thought the journalist was directly pointing out that this assumption was not as true as it once was. They were pointing that out in a very "this is shocking" kind of way... but it /is/ shocking. The vast majority of students go to college thinking that they will be able to get a white-collar job upon graduation. The only way that thinking will change is with more articles like this. The other thing to consider is that there is still an extremely strong correlation between having a degree and having a white-collar job. We can argue on what direction causation runs, but the correlation is inarguable.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    There are many jobs that you won't even be considered without a degree. Her example is one of them. In most European countries, nursing is a degree that shares part of the education with medicine.
    - lsc 13y ago
      Yeah. Speaking as someone who doesn't have a degree, I'm not sure that I'd get much any of a raise as a SysAdmin/systems person if I got a degree; probably not any more of a raise than I'd get for that much more experience, anyhow. But a degree would help a lot if I decided to change jobs, or even get a professional licence of some sort. For example, getting a real-estate licence, something I've considered in the course of researching my own investments, is possible without a degree, but more difficult. A degree would also help me move into management in another person's company, the traditional upwards path for aging computer operators. A degree would also come in handy if I want to emigrate to a first-world country before I become rich. Again, it's not required, but the process is rather longer and more nasty without a degree. I'm not saying a degree has zero value. It doesn't have infinite value, though, and the cost of a degree is not zero. To bring the conversation back to me, I got out of high school in '97. I immediately got a really good programming/sysadmin job because, well, it was 1997. They were hiring any idiot with a pulse. I was able to turn that opportunity into a solid reputation with solid experience that I was able to use to remain employed through the crash. If I had gone to college, and got out in 2001? I bet I would have been unemployed for another five years after graduating. The job market for people with my skillset was brutal. I think that if you have a good chance to start your career? you should take it, even if that means delaying school. Of course, if you have a chance to go to school for free, and that chance will go away if you don't take it right away? you should take that, too... but I think the former is more common than the latter. Usually, if you can go to school now, you can go to school four years from now, but it's dramatically easier to start your career when there is a lot of demand in your field. Now, I'm mostly speaking of finances. there is a psychological aspect to school, too. There is value to learning how to fit in, but again, that value is not infinite, and the cost is not zero.