4 ms·

More like the fundamental attribution error. Finding bad code is easy. Finding people who are irremediably bad programmers is not that easy. The most you will

by pekk 13y ago

More like the fundamental attribution error. Finding bad code is easy. Finding people who are irremediably bad programmers is not that easy. The most you will find is people who are still learning, or have some specific bad habit.

sekm 13y ago
My experience tutoring at university would beg to differ. Perhaps irremediably bad is not the right word, but as a tutor of ~30 first year students you find yourself almost having to give up on half the class.
- wavesounds 13y ago
  I TA'd Intro to Computer Science (Java Programming) at UCSC for 2 years and I would emphatically disagree with you. The whole time I was tutoring (groups and one on one) I never met anyone who I thought couldn't learn to program. It was 100% a function of time. Some people certainly got it quicker, but I never met anyone who couldn't get it at all given they put in the time. I probably worked with over 200 students indirectly and 50 one on one and I never felt I had to 'give up' on any of them. In fact it was one of the most enjoyable and rewarding jobs I've had.
  - nicholas73 13y ago
    One of the problems I have with formal education is that nobody has ever considered how to motivate students. As you say, most subjects really are a function of time and effort. Even with serious roadblocks, a good tutor should be able to teach you if you spend the time. The only place where you can't teach someone is where there are discoveries to be made.
  - sekm 13y ago
    I guess I could’ve phrased it more carefully. Sure, I think everybody can learn to program, but given the limited amount of time you can spend with each student and their predisposition toward some of the key elements of programming it's just unlikely that you can teach 30 first years how to legitimately program given just a 2 hour lab each week. Keep in mind some of the students are just 'tasting' programming and some students have ridiculous external commitments too. I tutor people 1 on 1 now, besides working, and it's incredibly better. Never in this scenario have I met anybody who's never had those 'aha' moments.
- larksimian 13y ago
  I'm guessing considerably more than half the class finds itself wanting to give up on you.
davidbalbert 13y ago
Author here. I might be misunderstanding what you mean, but if you're saying that these qualities are not innate, I definitely agree with you. If you want to become a better programmer, I think these are all things that you can get better at with practice. The purpose of the post was to highlight and give names to the way we (at Hacker School) think about programming.
Sssnake 13y ago
>Finding people who are irremediably bad programmers is not that easy What? I can go get you a few hundred right now if you want. It is trivially easy to find tons of bad programmers. >The most you will find is people who are still learning I wish. Mostly I find people who should be still learning, but don't want to. People who have an incredibly superficial knowledge of one set of technologies (lets say php+mysql) and think they are set. The kind of depth of knowledge you would expect from someone with 6 months of experience, even though they've actually been doing it for 5+ years.

by pekk 13y ago

sekm 13y ago

My experience tutoring at university would beg to differ. Perhaps irremediably bad is not the right word, but as a tutor of ~30 first year students you find yourself almost having to give up on half the class.

wavesounds 13y ago
I TA'd Intro to Computer Science (Java Programming) at UCSC for 2 years and I would emphatically disagree with you. The whole time I was tutoring (groups and one on one) I never met anyone who I thought couldn't learn to program. It was 100% a function of time. Some people certainly got it quicker, but I never met anyone who couldn't get it at all given they put in the time. I probably worked with over 200 students indirectly and 50 one on one and I never felt I had to 'give up' on any of them. In fact it was one of the most enjoyable and rewarding jobs I've had.
- nicholas73 13y ago
  One of the problems I have with formal education is that nobody has ever considered how to motivate students. As you say, most subjects really are a function of time and effort. Even with serious roadblocks, a good tutor should be able to teach you if you spend the time. The only place where you can't teach someone is where there are discoveries to be made.
- sekm 13y ago
  I guess I could’ve phrased it more carefully. Sure, I think everybody can learn to program, but given the limited amount of time you can spend with each student and their predisposition toward some of the key elements of programming it's just unlikely that you can teach 30 first years how to legitimately program given just a 2 hour lab each week. Keep in mind some of the students are just 'tasting' programming and some students have ridiculous external commitments too. I tutor people 1 on 1 now, besides working, and it's incredibly better. Never in this scenario have I met anybody who's never had those 'aha' moments.
larksimian 13y ago
I'm guessing considerably more than half the class finds itself wanting to give up on you.

davidbalbert 13y ago

Author here. I might be misunderstanding what you mean, but if you're saying that these qualities are not innate, I definitely agree with you. If you want to become a better programmer, I think these are all things that you can get better at with practice. The purpose of the post was to highlight and give names to the way we (at Hacker School) think about programming.

Sssnake 13y ago

>Finding people who are irremediably bad programmers is not that easy What? I can go get you a few hundred right now if you want. It is trivially easy to find tons of bad programmers. >The most you will find is people who are still learning I wish. Mostly I find people who should be still learning, but don't want to. People who have an incredibly superficial knowledge of one set of technologies (lets say php+mysql) and think they are set. The kind of depth of knowledge you would expect from someone with 6 months of experience, even though they've actually been doing it for 5+ years.