5 ms·

So what if it's illegal? Is your moral compass really dictated by the state?

by duairc 13y ago

tedks 13y ago
Yes. Most humans never progress past the command-ethics morality that characterizes Kohlberg's second stage (of three) of moral development. This isn't correlated with general intelligence. Most of the intelligent people you know probably have a moral compass largely dictated by the state.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Many (perhaps even most) people can be talked into the later Kohlberg states of moral development. This is basically what tends happens in the lead up to a category of laws being rejected by society and eventually dispensed with.
  - tedks 13y ago
    That's an optimistic way of looking at it. The pessimistic way is that people eventually see enough authority figures endorsing new stances that they change their own stance. Obviously nobody explicitly thinks their morality is dictated by the state/church/parents/authority-figure, but in reality most people would agree with virtually everything an authority figure would say, especially if you look at what people actually do rather than just listening to what they profess.
- dopamean 13y ago
  I find it a little offensive that because I agree with a certain law it means my morality is dictated by the state. I'm sorry that I believe that if you're a repeat offender who just hacked a computer system and made off with nearly a million dollars in fraudulent credit card transactions you should go to prison. I haven't yet decided whether or not I think 10 years is too long for that.
  - arca_vorago 13y ago
    "I find it a little offensive that because I agree with a certain law it means my morality is dictated by the state." You misunderstand, and from there you argue based on your misunderstanding. No one is saying that just because you agree with a certain "law it means [your] morality is dictated by the state.", rather, your morality just happens to overlap with the state, meaning you are past that stage of moral development (at least regarding that particular issue). Also, your claim of offense and then your sarcastic apology don't do anything to further the conversation, avoid such rhetorical sub-tactics in the future.
    - dopamean 13y ago
      In the future you ought to avoid telling people how to communicate their thoughts. I didn't ask for your advice and from what I can tell you understood my point. To me that looks like successful communication.
  - tedks 13y ago
    I think if you believe people should go to prisons, your morality is dictated by the state. If you find that offensive, maybe you should make an effort to clear your cached thoughts[0], and recompute everything you think about prisons. If you haven't done this at least once in your life, it's probable that you have a thought in your cache that was just inserted there by some authority figure while you were young enough not to know better. [0] http://lesswrong.com/lw/k5/cached_thoughts/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/k5/cached_thoughts/
    - thaumasiotes 13y ago
      this quote is from memory, so the wording will be off, but... "It was as if the human brain had a blind spot, and someone had written on it in permanent ink, 'Kings. What a good idea.'" I believe it's from the Discworld book Guards! Guards!； I always loved that imagery.
  - guelo 13y ago
    > made off with nearly a million dollars Why do you state-defenders feel the need to make up and exaggerate facts.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
TallGuyShort 13y ago
I think it's good for a moral compass to be partly dictated by the state. One should not assume that they know the reasoning behind every law and disobey it simply because they disagree. There is value in just obeying the law unless you have a very good reason to do otherwise. The law is intended to be a protection, and it can only do so if we obey it for it's own sake. That said, I realize that many of the issues discussed on HN of late have been cases where the state also considers itself above the rule of law - and I think that's far worse. So I don't mean to argue with you - just saying that breaking the law needs to be a very conscious decision you do for a good reason. And you should be prepared to accept some consequences.
- angersock 13y ago
  "The law is intended to be a protection, and it can only do so if we obey it for it's own sake." Most law is pretty obviously mostly just there because of special interests at one time or another--remember, "law" refers to both "thou shalt not kill" as well "all sidewalks with thus and such distance of a school must have thus and such..." as well as "thou shall not commit sodomy". These are all laws with different purposes, different origins, and different moral backing--to pretend that we ought to follow them, just because they are laws, is rules fetishism.
- baddox 13y ago
  > I think it's good for a moral compass to be partly dictated by the state. One should not assume that they know the reasoning behind every law and disobey it simply because they disagree. I find that sentiment deeply troubling. I think there is value to disobeying rules you disagree with, and even going out of your way to do so, assuming you're aware of the obvious risks. > There is value in just obeying the law unless you have a very good reason to do otherwise. Well, sure, but the reason is self-interest, not morality. > cases where the state also considers itself above the rule of law To me, that's a nonsensical phrase. The state creates, interprets, and enforces laws, so it is by definition above the rule of law (or perhaps one could say that the state is the rule of law).
  - anonymous 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

So what if it's illegal? Is your moral compass really dictated by the state?

by duairc 13y ago

So what if it's illegal? Is your moral compass really dictated by the state?

tedks 13y ago

Yes. Most humans never progress past the command-ethics morality that characterizes Kohlberg's second stage (of three) of moral development. This isn't correlated with general intelligence. Most of the intelligent people you know probably have a moral compass largely dictated by the state.

jlgreco 13y ago
Many (perhaps even most) people can be talked into the later Kohlberg states of moral development. This is basically what tends happens in the lead up to a category of laws being rejected by society and eventually dispensed with.
- tedks 13y ago
  That's an optimistic way of looking at it. The pessimistic way is that people eventually see enough authority figures endorsing new stances that they change their own stance. Obviously nobody explicitly thinks their morality is dictated by the state/church/parents/authority-figure, but in reality most people would agree with virtually everything an authority figure would say, especially if you look at what people actually do rather than just listening to what they profess.
dopamean 13y ago
I find it a little offensive that because I agree with a certain law it means my morality is dictated by the state. I'm sorry that I believe that if you're a repeat offender who just hacked a computer system and made off with nearly a million dollars in fraudulent credit card transactions you should go to prison. I haven't yet decided whether or not I think 10 years is too long for that.
- arca_vorago 13y ago
  "I find it a little offensive that because I agree with a certain law it means my morality is dictated by the state." You misunderstand, and from there you argue based on your misunderstanding. No one is saying that just because you agree with a certain "law it means [your] morality is dictated by the state.", rather, your morality just happens to overlap with the state, meaning you are past that stage of moral development (at least regarding that particular issue). Also, your claim of offense and then your sarcastic apology don't do anything to further the conversation, avoid such rhetorical sub-tactics in the future.
  - dopamean 13y ago
    In the future you ought to avoid telling people how to communicate their thoughts. I didn't ask for your advice and from what I can tell you understood my point. To me that looks like successful communication.
- tedks 13y ago
  I think if you believe people should go to prisons, your morality is dictated by the state. If you find that offensive, maybe you should make an effort to clear your cached thoughts[0], and recompute everything you think about prisons. If you haven't done this at least once in your life, it's probable that you have a thought in your cache that was just inserted there by some authority figure while you were young enough not to know better. [0] http://lesswrong.com/lw/k5/cached_thoughts/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/k5/cached_thoughts/
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    this quote is from memory, so the wording will be off, but... "It was as if the human brain had a blind spot, and someone had written on it in permanent ink, 'Kings. What a good idea.'" I believe it's from the Discworld book Guards! Guards!； I always loved that imagery.
- guelo 13y ago
  > made off with nearly a million dollars Why do you state-defenders feel the need to make up and exaggerate facts.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

TallGuyShort 13y ago

I think it's good for a moral compass to be partly dictated by the state. One should not assume that they know the reasoning behind every law and disobey it simply because they disagree. There is value in just obeying the law unless you have a very good reason to do otherwise. The law is intended to be a protection, and it can only do so if we obey it for it's own sake. That said, I realize that many of the issues discussed on HN of late have been cases where the state also considers itself above the rule of law - and I think that's far worse. So I don't mean to argue with you - just saying that breaking the law needs to be a very conscious decision you do for a good reason. And you should be prepared to accept some consequences.

angersock 13y ago
"The law is intended to be a protection, and it can only do so if we obey it for it's own sake." Most law is pretty obviously mostly just there because of special interests at one time or another--remember, "law" refers to both "thou shalt not kill" as well "all sidewalks with thus and such distance of a school must have thus and such..." as well as "thou shall not commit sodomy". These are all laws with different purposes, different origins, and different moral backing--to pretend that we ought to follow them, just because they are laws, is rules fetishism.
baddox 13y ago
> I think it's good for a moral compass to be partly dictated by the state. One should not assume that they know the reasoning behind every law and disobey it simply because they disagree. I find that sentiment deeply troubling. I think there is value to disobeying rules you disagree with, and even going out of your way to do so, assuming you're aware of the obvious risks. > There is value in just obeying the law unless you have a very good reason to do otherwise. Well, sure, but the reason is self-interest, not morality. > cases where the state also considers itself above the rule of law To me, that's a nonsensical phrase. The state creates, interprets, and enforces laws, so it is by definition above the rule of law (or perhaps one could say that the state is the rule of law).
- anonymous 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]