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I bet we'd reduce the need for extreme intervention like this if we'd encourage women to deliver in more traditional positions. Prone and sedated is just about

by jonah 13y ago

I bet we'd reduce the need for extreme intervention like this if we'd encourage women to deliver in more traditional positions. Prone and sedated is just about the worst possible way to have a kid.

marquis 13y ago
That's a very 20th century view of birthing positions and certainly not in poorer countries. Clean equipment, good pre-natal care and general excellent health plus some good luck are needed more. http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/globalissues.asp http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/globalissues.asp "Outcomes in these maternity centers were so good that Dr. Araujo began to study what the traditional midwives did, and ended up incorporating hammocks, more patience, and upright positions for birth into the hospital"
- jonah 13y ago
  These two sentences follow: 'This system functioned efficiently until his death; it has since been dismantled due to lack of support and interest on the part of the younger obstetricians who replaced him. While it existed, this system was an excellent example of Graham's "partnership paradigm" or what Brigitte Jordan has called "mutual accommodation" between biomedical and indigenous systems.' i.e. The traditional methods are occasionally acknowledged but rarely adopted.
  - marquis 13y ago
    Fair enough. It's true that I have bias, my wealthier friends who give birth are 'over-educated and academic', and the understanding of a natural birth is a given, while ideally being as close as possible to a good hospital in case of complications. The time I've spent in developing countries, it's just anecdotal to me that a midwife is the first call for a pregnant woman rather than an obstetrician.
    - rayiner 13y ago
      > my wealthier friends who give birth are 'over-educated and academic', and the understanding of a natural birth is a given This is what happens when over-educated people take first-world problems to the extreme and turn them into third-world problems. Like a highly-educated acquaintance of my brother's who married a sherpa and is now upset that he won't accept her working outside the home. > The time I've spent in developing countries, it's just anecdotal to me that a midwife is the first call for a pregnant woman rather than an obstetrician. My father (who works in international development and has long specialized in maternal health) has spent much of his life trying to disabuse women in developing countries (like his native Bangladesh) of this habit.
    - harryh 13y ago
      > my wealthier friends who give birth are 'over-educated and academic', and the understanding of a natural birth is a given That's a little bit like the crazy parents who won't vaccinate their kids. We've done such a good job with immunization that they've never seen the consequences of ignoring it, so they pick up woo-woo theories about autism and ignore all medical science.
      - sridharvembu 13y ago
        There is evolving tentative suggestion that autism may be an auto-immune disease: http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/2013/large-study-links-autism-to-autoimmune-disease-in-mothers http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/2013/large-study-link... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15546805 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15546805 --- abstract -- Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is a spectrum of behavioral anomalies characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, often accompanied by repetitive and stereotyped behavior. The condition manifests within the first 3 years of life and persists into adulthood. There are numerous hypotheses regarding the etiology and pathology of ASD, including a suggested role for immune dysfunction. However, to date, the evidence for involvement of the immune system in autism has been inconclusive. While immune system abnormalities have been reported in children with autistic disorder, there is little consensus regarding the nature of these differences which include both enhanced autoimmunity and reduced immune function. In this review, we discuss current findings with respect to immune function and the spectrum of autoimmune phenomena described in children with ASD. -- end quote --- The immune system in new-born babies and young children is immature and under-developed.
coffeemug 13y ago
Do you think it likely that an entire field that evolved over a period of thousands of years, has thousands of people doing the job all over the world daily, and is so common and important that there is scientific research performed on it pretty much not-stop, just missed this idea?
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  If only. I strongly recommend this documentary: http://www.thebusinessofbeingborn.com/ http://www.thebusinessofbeingborn.com/
- jonah 13y ago
  Yes. [edit] Part of it is that the patriarchal doctor wants to be "in charge" of the situation and treat childbirth like some kind of medical operation. (This is not to say that modern medicine saves many children's and mother's lives. A modern, optimal, approach is to have a traditional birth with ready access to a hospital for a c-section, etc if necessary.)
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Why haven't any researchers run a trial to compare the two and revolutionized this area of medicine after pronouncing dramatically better results for the traditional way?
    - rosser 13y ago
      Because the ethics committee is never going to sign off on an experiment that has even a hint of risk to mother or child who aren't already at greater risk from a lack of intervention. It's the same reason you don't conduct Phase I clinical trials of new chemotherapeutic agents with people who don't already have cancer. Birth is already risky enough. "Let's science that, to see which has the best outcome," while a completely rational approach not only to decreasing harm, but also to increasing health, just isn't going to fly.
    - willyt 13y ago
      They have, in the UK when you have your first appointment with the midwife they encourage you to consider it as an option. If you decide to do this you will then be assigned an experienced midwife who will attend the birth at your house, will monitor the situation for complications and will have an ambulance on standby at the first hint that things are not progressing normally. Also, if there is any hint of complications at all during the pregnancy you will be strongly recommended to have a birth in the hospital.
JshWright 13y ago
The article talks several times about this device's application in under-developed countries where 'traditional positions' are already quite common. I guarantee you a huge percentage of the women who die every year giving birth are not 'prone and sedated'. They are (if they're lucky) in a rural clinic, with a midwife who may or may not be terribly skilled. If she _is_ skilled, it's because she has decades of experience watching mothers and babies die, and has learned many lessons in very painful ways. This device seems to provide a means for those midwives to assist in cases where labor simply isn't progressing (and believe it or not, that still happens, despite all the 'traditional positions' in the world).
yetanotherphd 13y ago
In fact, birth is always painless and instant if you follow the Paleo diet and the uberman sleep schedule.
thaumasiotes 13y ago
> Prone and sedated is just about the worst possible way to have a kid. There are a lot of people responding to you repeating the claim that we encourage women to deliver prone, and one who says they normally do it lying on their backs. Personally, culture has given me a strong impression that supine is normal and prone would be bizarre. Where's this "prone" idea coming from?

by jonah 13y ago

I bet we'd reduce the need for extreme intervention like this if we'd encourage women to deliver in more traditional positions. Prone and sedated is just about the worst possible way to have a kid.

marquis 13y ago

That's a very 20th century view of birthing positions and certainly not in poorer countries. Clean equipment, good pre-natal care and general excellent health plus some good luck are needed more. http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/globalissues.asp http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/globalissues.asp "Outcomes in these maternity centers were so good that Dr. Araujo began to study what the traditional midwives did, and ended up incorporating hammocks, more patience, and upright positions for birth into the hospital"

jonah 13y ago
These two sentences follow: 'This system functioned efficiently until his death; it has since been dismantled due to lack of support and interest on the part of the younger obstetricians who replaced him. While it existed, this system was an excellent example of Graham's "partnership paradigm" or what Brigitte Jordan has called "mutual accommodation" between biomedical and indigenous systems.' i.e. The traditional methods are occasionally acknowledged but rarely adopted.
- marquis 13y ago
  Fair enough. It's true that I have bias, my wealthier friends who give birth are 'over-educated and academic', and the understanding of a natural birth is a given, while ideally being as close as possible to a good hospital in case of complications. The time I've spent in developing countries, it's just anecdotal to me that a midwife is the first call for a pregnant woman rather than an obstetrician.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    > my wealthier friends who give birth are 'over-educated and academic', and the understanding of a natural birth is a given This is what happens when over-educated people take first-world problems to the extreme and turn them into third-world problems. Like a highly-educated acquaintance of my brother's who married a sherpa and is now upset that he won't accept her working outside the home. > The time I've spent in developing countries, it's just anecdotal to me that a midwife is the first call for a pregnant woman rather than an obstetrician. My father (who works in international development and has long specialized in maternal health) has spent much of his life trying to disabuse women in developing countries (like his native Bangladesh) of this habit.
  - harryh 13y ago
    > my wealthier friends who give birth are 'over-educated and academic', and the understanding of a natural birth is a given That's a little bit like the crazy parents who won't vaccinate their kids. We've done such a good job with immunization that they've never seen the consequences of ignoring it, so they pick up woo-woo theories about autism and ignore all medical science.
    - sridharvembu 13y ago
      There is evolving tentative suggestion that autism may be an auto-immune disease: http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/2013/large-study-links-autism-to-autoimmune-disease-in-mothers http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/2013/large-study-link... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15546805 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15546805 --- abstract -- Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is a spectrum of behavioral anomalies characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, often accompanied by repetitive and stereotyped behavior. The condition manifests within the first 3 years of life and persists into adulthood. There are numerous hypotheses regarding the etiology and pathology of ASD, including a suggested role for immune dysfunction. However, to date, the evidence for involvement of the immune system in autism has been inconclusive. While immune system abnormalities have been reported in children with autistic disorder, there is little consensus regarding the nature of these differences which include both enhanced autoimmunity and reduced immune function. In this review, we discuss current findings with respect to immune function and the spectrum of autoimmune phenomena described in children with ASD. -- end quote --- The immune system in new-born babies and young children is immature and under-developed.

coffeemug 13y ago

Do you think it likely that an entire field that evolved over a period of thousands of years, has thousands of people doing the job all over the world daily, and is so common and important that there is scientific research performed on it pretty much not-stop, just missed this idea?

anigbrowl 13y ago
If only. I strongly recommend this documentary: http://www.thebusinessofbeingborn.com/ http://www.thebusinessofbeingborn.com/
jonah 13y ago
Yes. [edit] Part of it is that the patriarchal doctor wants to be "in charge" of the situation and treat childbirth like some kind of medical operation. (This is not to say that modern medicine saves many children's and mother's lives. A modern, optimal, approach is to have a traditional birth with ready access to a hospital for a c-section, etc if necessary.)
- mikeash 13y ago
  Why haven't any researchers run a trial to compare the two and revolutionized this area of medicine after pronouncing dramatically better results for the traditional way?
  - rosser 13y ago
    Because the ethics committee is never going to sign off on an experiment that has even a hint of risk to mother or child who aren't already at greater risk from a lack of intervention. It's the same reason you don't conduct Phase I clinical trials of new chemotherapeutic agents with people who don't already have cancer. Birth is already risky enough. "Let's science that, to see which has the best outcome," while a completely rational approach not only to decreasing harm, but also to increasing health, just isn't going to fly.
  - willyt 13y ago
    They have, in the UK when you have your first appointment with the midwife they encourage you to consider it as an option. If you decide to do this you will then be assigned an experienced midwife who will attend the birth at your house, will monitor the situation for complications and will have an ambulance on standby at the first hint that things are not progressing normally. Also, if there is any hint of complications at all during the pregnancy you will be strongly recommended to have a birth in the hospital.

JshWright 13y ago

The article talks several times about this device's application in under-developed countries where 'traditional positions' are already quite common. I guarantee you a huge percentage of the women who die every year giving birth are not 'prone and sedated'. They are (if they're lucky) in a rural clinic, with a midwife who may or may not be terribly skilled. If she _is_ skilled, it's because she has decades of experience watching mothers and babies die, and has learned many lessons in very painful ways. This device seems to provide a means for those midwives to assist in cases where labor simply isn't progressing (and believe it or not, that still happens, despite all the 'traditional positions' in the world).

yetanotherphd 13y ago

In fact, birth is always painless and instant if you follow the Paleo diet and the uberman sleep schedule.

thaumasiotes 13y ago

> Prone and sedated is just about the worst possible way to have a kid. There are a lot of people responding to you repeating the claim that we encourage women to deliver prone, and one who says they normally do it lying on their backs. Personally, culture has given me a strong impression that supine is normal and prone would be bizarre. Where's this "prone" idea coming from?