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The hating on Coin is unbelievable. It seems like a great first step towards backwards-compatible card consolidation. Are there going to be issues with it? O

The hating on Coin is unbelievable. It seems like a great first step towards backwards-compatible card consolidation. Are there going to be issues with it? Of course. Will it last in the long run? Well, the phone thing is obvious, kids. I bet these guys are aware of that and have a plan. Regardless, its an innovative piece of hardware that moves the ball. That's better than any of the shit I've built.

lanaius 13y ago
For me part of the issue is that I have enough money troubles where I am in life (and I'll admit Coin isn't probably targeted at me in that case) that I don't have time to worry about there being issues with the device that delivers purchases. I don't need, for example, one of those issues being that something that should hit a credit card hits a debit card or vice versa. When I give someone plastic they can't change the payment account when I'm not looking.
stormbrew 13y ago
Some of the 'hate' is coming from places (eg. Canada) that have already moved on to chip cards (which won't and probably can't work with this) and are now slowly moving on to nfc. It's just already late for this kind of development. 5 years ago? I'd have been all over this. Now? I'm just waiting for Apple to adopt NFC so we can all move forward on better solutions.
- cypher543 13y ago
  Their FAQ says that future versions will support chip cards. https://onlycoin.com/support/faq/ https://onlycoin.com/support/faq/
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - Nursie 13y ago
    That seems.... unlikely, on balance. There is no way for the consumer to transfer all the necessary data from their chip to another device, and the banks probably wouldn't be interested due to branding and other concerns.
  - dsl 13y ago
    The whole point of chips is they can't be cloned. This whole product works by cloning.
    - stormbrew 13y ago
      It's probably too strong to say that they can't be cloned, but I don't think the banks would be very happy at all with someone selling chip skimmers to end users. I'm not sure if users should be happy with that either.
      - snom380 13y ago
        I think you're going to have a very hard time cloning them. Security researchers have worked on this for years, while the card manufacturers have learnt from their mistakes and adapted.
      - PeterisP 13y ago
        It's not too strong to say that - they've been used for many years, there are decent financial incentives for organized crime to clone the cards, but the industry hasn't seen any "chip skimmer" yet.
      - Nursie 13y ago
        There are a variety of theoretical attacks on EMV cards. Some involve compromised reader devices. Some involve ingenious card-like devices that talk wirelessly to a device containging the real card and change some of the data exchange going back and forth. This may allow some transactions to circumvent PIN or other validation but all requires the original, stolen card. One I just read about (yescard) could allow you to clone a card and could be used (most likely) for a half dozen low-value offline transactions. But it has no keys so can't fool the bank. You can get a card reader/writer on the open market for about $10. Writeable cards will cost you a little more. Problem is that the card you want to clone isn't going to give up the goods in terms of private keys, PIN validation data etc, so like the yescard, it's going to be of very limited use.
      - colinbartlett 13y ago
        I can't wait until version 2.0 comes out and they send you a padded envelope in which you're supposed to ship to them all your chip and pin cards so they can clone them into your device.
  - objclxt 13y ago
    I have no confidence they will be able to support EMV cards. I'm sure they'd like to, but consider that Square hasn't managed to yet and their business / funding / engineering talent is considerably larger than Coin's. There are many, many regulatory issues involved with EMV.
  - driverdan 13y ago
    Wow, this is a huge red flag to me that I missed the first time I looked at the site. There is absolutely no way they're going to be able to support cloning EMV cards. Maybe they mean something else, that the'll support EMV in coin so long as the data comes from somewhere else (eg the card issues partner with them). But without stating more details it's very misleading.
  - vidarh 13y ago
    Consider this: The incentive for the banks in using chip and pin cards is that they are supposed to be near impossible to clone, and thus there is a "liability inversion": Unlike with mag-stripe + signature cards, with EMV cards, the assumption is that if the pin was used, the customer is liable. With some exceptions. Couple that with massively reduced fraud. Now, if they allow a method for cloning these cards, both of those go out the window: Criminals will just attack the weakest point, which is going to be whatever mechanism Coin would use to allow cards to get added to their device. As for the US market: Consider that pretty much all large US banks have committed to start rolling out EMV cards (though many will roll out chip + signature rather than chip + pin, which seems the height of stupidity)
    - cypher543 13y ago
      I don't work for Coin and I don't have any idea if they can pull off chip card support or not. I simply said that they claim it's under development.
ams6110 13y ago
For me, it's like the classic Spolsky critique of the "Cue Cat". It's solving a problem that I don't have. I carry a wallet anyway to contain my ID, my cash, and other cards that are not credit cards. Carrying a couple of credit cards along with all that is not a problem. I personally don't have any hate for Coin or what they are trying to do; I hope they are successful. But it's not something I would buy.
- jahewson 13y ago
  Exactly. Currently in my wallet: a California driver's license, a Green Card, a medical insurance card, and a gym card which works via barcode. There's also a credit and a debit card. Thats's just 2/6 which I could replace with Coin.
  - danudey 13y ago
    Debit card, credit card, starbucks card, transit pass, home depot gift card, health card, two private health insurance cards, costco card, driver's license, and a rewards card from a local restaurant. Both my debit card and credit card are chip-and-PIN cards, so I can't replace this with card, and none of the rest have magnetic stripes that anyone actually uses (the few cards that do have stripes, like my Costco card and driver's license, also have my picture on them and I can't replace them with a generic card). This will be super useful for some people, but not for most people.
  - WesleyJohnson 13y ago
    I have a debit card for my personal account, a debit card for a joint account I share with my SO, a general purpose credit card and 4 store credit cards. All of which use magnetic strips and could be replaced by coin. Yes, I have to carry my ID and insurance card as well, but coin would drastically reduce the bulk of what I carry and make that minimalist wallet I ordered off kickstarter all the more useful. I think it's brilliant, even if it is a stop-gap until we get proper NFC adoption.
- omnisci 13y ago
  Github solves a problem that I don't have, but that doesn't mean it's a bad product right? Not to argue with you specifically, but the concept of "solves a problem I don't have" isn't really an issue. I use Uber frequently because I don't drive (NYC), you may not if you have a car. Is Uber a shitty company? Nope, its pretty awesome, but it solves a problem for a small subset of people. Same with Coin. I highly doubt YC would have taken on coin if they didn't have a large market to go after. Whether or not it applies to me is less important and that seems to get lost in these conversations (which is weird being on HN).
pbreit 13y ago
When it comes down to it, having a few plastic cards is just not that big of an issue compared to the advantages of multiple, simple plastic cards.
mcv 13y ago
> The hating on Coin is unbelievable. It seems like a great first step towards backwards-compatible card consolidation. It's a great first step towards consolidating the worst and most insecure aspects of credit cards. It's not going to work with modern cards, because it can't copy chips. And if you have an old mag-strip card, you should really get a new one, rather than consolidating the old one.

lanaius 13y ago

For me part of the issue is that I have enough money troubles where I am in life (and I'll admit Coin isn't probably targeted at me in that case) that I don't have time to worry about there being issues with the device that delivers purchases. I don't need, for example, one of those issues being that something that should hit a credit card hits a debit card or vice versa. When I give someone plastic they can't change the payment account when I'm not looking.

stormbrew 13y ago

Some of the 'hate' is coming from places (eg. Canada) that have already moved on to chip cards (which won't and probably can't work with this) and are now slowly moving on to nfc. It's just already late for this kind of development. 5 years ago? I'd have been all over this. Now? I'm just waiting for Apple to adopt NFC so we can all move forward on better solutions.

cypher543 13y ago
Their FAQ says that future versions will support chip cards. https://onlycoin.com/support/faq/ https://onlycoin.com/support/faq/
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Nursie 13y ago
  That seems.... unlikely, on balance. There is no way for the consumer to transfer all the necessary data from their chip to another device, and the banks probably wouldn't be interested due to branding and other concerns.
- dsl 13y ago
  The whole point of chips is they can't be cloned. This whole product works by cloning.
  - stormbrew 13y ago
    It's probably too strong to say that they can't be cloned, but I don't think the banks would be very happy at all with someone selling chip skimmers to end users. I'm not sure if users should be happy with that either.
    - snom380 13y ago
      I think you're going to have a very hard time cloning them. Security researchers have worked on this for years, while the card manufacturers have learnt from their mistakes and adapted.
    - PeterisP 13y ago
      It's not too strong to say that - they've been used for many years, there are decent financial incentives for organized crime to clone the cards, but the industry hasn't seen any "chip skimmer" yet.
    - Nursie 13y ago
      There are a variety of theoretical attacks on EMV cards. Some involve compromised reader devices. Some involve ingenious card-like devices that talk wirelessly to a device containging the real card and change some of the data exchange going back and forth. This may allow some transactions to circumvent PIN or other validation but all requires the original, stolen card. One I just read about (yescard) could allow you to clone a card and could be used (most likely) for a half dozen low-value offline transactions. But it has no keys so can't fool the bank. You can get a card reader/writer on the open market for about $10. Writeable cards will cost you a little more. Problem is that the card you want to clone isn't going to give up the goods in terms of private keys, PIN validation data etc, so like the yescard, it's going to be of very limited use.
    - colinbartlett 13y ago
      I can't wait until version 2.0 comes out and they send you a padded envelope in which you're supposed to ship to them all your chip and pin cards so they can clone them into your device.
- objclxt 13y ago
  I have no confidence they will be able to support EMV cards. I'm sure they'd like to, but consider that Square hasn't managed to yet and their business / funding / engineering talent is considerably larger than Coin's. There are many, many regulatory issues involved with EMV.
- driverdan 13y ago
  Wow, this is a huge red flag to me that I missed the first time I looked at the site. There is absolutely no way they're going to be able to support cloning EMV cards. Maybe they mean something else, that the'll support EMV in coin so long as the data comes from somewhere else (eg the card issues partner with them). But without stating more details it's very misleading.
- vidarh 13y ago
  Consider this: The incentive for the banks in using chip and pin cards is that they are supposed to be near impossible to clone, and thus there is a "liability inversion": Unlike with mag-stripe + signature cards, with EMV cards, the assumption is that if the pin was used, the customer is liable. With some exceptions. Couple that with massively reduced fraud. Now, if they allow a method for cloning these cards, both of those go out the window: Criminals will just attack the weakest point, which is going to be whatever mechanism Coin would use to allow cards to get added to their device. As for the US market: Consider that pretty much all large US banks have committed to start rolling out EMV cards (though many will roll out chip + signature rather than chip + pin, which seems the height of stupidity)
  - cypher543 13y ago
    I don't work for Coin and I don't have any idea if they can pull off chip card support or not. I simply said that they claim it's under development.

ams6110 13y ago

For me, it's like the classic Spolsky critique of the "Cue Cat". It's solving a problem that I don't have. I carry a wallet anyway to contain my ID, my cash, and other cards that are not credit cards. Carrying a couple of credit cards along with all that is not a problem. I personally don't have any hate for Coin or what they are trying to do; I hope they are successful. But it's not something I would buy.

jahewson 13y ago
Exactly. Currently in my wallet: a California driver's license, a Green Card, a medical insurance card, and a gym card which works via barcode. There's also a credit and a debit card. Thats's just 2/6 which I could replace with Coin.
- danudey 13y ago
  Debit card, credit card, starbucks card, transit pass, home depot gift card, health card, two private health insurance cards, costco card, driver's license, and a rewards card from a local restaurant. Both my debit card and credit card are chip-and-PIN cards, so I can't replace this with card, and none of the rest have magnetic stripes that anyone actually uses (the few cards that do have stripes, like my Costco card and driver's license, also have my picture on them and I can't replace them with a generic card). This will be super useful for some people, but not for most people.
- WesleyJohnson 13y ago
  I have a debit card for my personal account, a debit card for a joint account I share with my SO, a general purpose credit card and 4 store credit cards. All of which use magnetic strips and could be replaced by coin. Yes, I have to carry my ID and insurance card as well, but coin would drastically reduce the bulk of what I carry and make that minimalist wallet I ordered off kickstarter all the more useful. I think it's brilliant, even if it is a stop-gap until we get proper NFC adoption.
omnisci 13y ago
Github solves a problem that I don't have, but that doesn't mean it's a bad product right? Not to argue with you specifically, but the concept of "solves a problem I don't have" isn't really an issue. I use Uber frequently because I don't drive (NYC), you may not if you have a car. Is Uber a shitty company? Nope, its pretty awesome, but it solves a problem for a small subset of people. Same with Coin. I highly doubt YC would have taken on coin if they didn't have a large market to go after. Whether or not it applies to me is less important and that seems to get lost in these conversations (which is weird being on HN).

pbreit 13y ago

When it comes down to it, having a few plastic cards is just not that big of an issue compared to the advantages of multiple, simple plastic cards.

mcv 13y ago

> The hating on Coin is unbelievable. It seems like a great first step towards backwards-compatible card consolidation. It's a great first step towards consolidating the worst and most insecure aspects of credit cards. It's not going to work with modern cards, because it can't copy chips. And if you have an old mag-strip card, you should really get a new one, rather than consolidating the old one.