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I'm surprised that admission into Computer Science PhD programs is so competitive. I would think that with the strong job market for computer scientists, there

I'm surprised that admission into Computer Science PhD programs is so competitive. I would think that with the strong job market for computer scientists, there would not be as many students who would want to make the commitment to a PhD program over other job and entrepreneurial opportunities.

DrSpock 13y ago
Entry into elite PhD programmes is as competitive as ever. Others, not so.
- mcguire 13y ago
  ...and of course Brown (where the author is) is top-twenty, in fact tied at #20 [according to US News & World Report[1]] with places like Rice. It's pretty elite. [1] http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/computer-science-rankings http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-gradu...
  - ex_ex_nihilo 13y ago
    Wow, my school's not even on the list and our graduate program for CS/CE has less than a 13% acceptance rate.
    - aet 13y ago
      This lists are basically meaningless. However, I wouldn't argue with the top 10 or so.
zerr 13y ago
I believe someone who is not a good software engineer or even can't code at all, can still be admitted into some CS PhD program.
- jrs99 13y ago
  i'm sure that's extremely rare though. maybe like 1 person per year may have no idea what coding is and get admitted to a program for CS.
  - jchendy 13y ago
    It completely depends on what area you're going into. Software engineering, systems, and AI students obviously need significant coding experience. HCI and theory (ie math), not as much.
    - jrs99 13y ago
      i don't think it depends what area. almost every single person in all of those fields will have done some coding before. Even if that means cs 101
      - zerr 13y ago
        Right, but what I wanted to highlight - a person might be able to code quick sort algorithm or breadth first search, but unable to get paid doing real world coding - when it is the client or employer who needs to be satisfied. So basically when you have a choice of being unemployed vs doing PhD and getting some studentship, you obviously prefer the latter path. And I believe there are quite many people who can "code" but unable to get paid.
        PeterisP 13y ago
        If you can "code" so poorly that you're unable to get paid, I can't imagine how you'd get even close to getting into a PhD program, even if your specialization is math of finite state automata or human interface guidelines. Coding (or being DBA or analyst, depending on your area) to the level of getting an okay salary is quite trivial compared to that - from the PhD students I've seen the 'most unemployable' ones would be so not because of their ability to code but because of social/mental issues.
mcguire 13y ago
I am not surprised that it is competitive (PhD's in general are kind of oversupplied), but the form the competition takes: "Maybe you didn't publish as an undergraduate.... Maybe you can't even write a very compelling research statement yet." When I was applying, no undergraduates had published research. And the "research statement" could hardly be described as "compelling"; that was one of the points of the breadth requirements for the graduate program---my eventual research topic was completely unrelated to my interests or knowledge coming out of my undergraduate program.
- HarryHirsch 13y ago
  It's a positive development that admission into a decent PhD program requires research experience. Some people somehow cannot make the jump from classroom exercises to production work, and you would rather that they don't get accepted, instead of having to throw them out a year later. Besides, a research lab is a workplace after all, and some kids are completely missing the social skills that are needed in a working environment. You can't have that sort in a PhD program either.
  - blahedo 13y ago
    > It's a positive development that admission into a decent PhD program requires research experience. No, it really really isn't. The vast majority of undergraduates have no effective access to research experience, even many that are fairly inquisitive and are receiving a pretty good education. This is especially true of undergraduates who are unable to afford tuition at top institutions (and increasingly even in-state public university tuition is unaffordable for the flagship universities that would be considered "top institutions). Requiring research experience in advance of grad school turns grad schools into an elitist echo chamber.
    - 001sky 13y ago
      I have to say, I agree with this. You risk optimizing to early around a local max, not a global one. Primarily due to lack of priors. However, I will be the first to admit true research is seriously a different aptitude than acing a lecture course. Advanced degree candidates should certainly be screened somehow for the latter. But my gut is that this is just optimizing for grant extraction. Truly powerful work is always second fiddle to the "more money" hampster-wheel that is peer-reviewed academic research.
ryuu 13y ago
Many US students do not go into PhD, because, as you mentioned, due to the strong job market (and also a 20k/year stipend). Most of the PhD students are foreign.

DrSpock 13y ago

Entry into elite PhD programmes is as competitive as ever. Others, not so.

mcguire 13y ago
...and of course Brown (where the author is) is top-twenty, in fact tied at #20 [according to US News & World Report[1]] with places like Rice. It's pretty elite. [1] http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/computer-science-rankings http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-gradu...
- ex_ex_nihilo 13y ago
  Wow, my school's not even on the list and our graduate program for CS/CE has less than a 13% acceptance rate.
  - aet 13y ago
    This lists are basically meaningless. However, I wouldn't argue with the top 10 or so.

zerr 13y ago

I believe someone who is not a good software engineer or even can't code at all, can still be admitted into some CS PhD program.

jrs99 13y ago
i'm sure that's extremely rare though. maybe like 1 person per year may have no idea what coding is and get admitted to a program for CS.
- jchendy 13y ago
  It completely depends on what area you're going into. Software engineering, systems, and AI students obviously need significant coding experience. HCI and theory (ie math), not as much.
  - jrs99 13y ago
    i don't think it depends what area. almost every single person in all of those fields will have done some coding before. Even if that means cs 101
    - zerr 13y ago
      Right, but what I wanted to highlight - a person might be able to code quick sort algorithm or breadth first search, but unable to get paid doing real world coding - when it is the client or employer who needs to be satisfied. So basically when you have a choice of being unemployed vs doing PhD and getting some studentship, you obviously prefer the latter path. And I believe there are quite many people who can "code" but unable to get paid.
      - PeterisP 13y ago
        If you can "code" so poorly that you're unable to get paid, I can't imagine how you'd get even close to getting into a PhD program, even if your specialization is math of finite state automata or human interface guidelines. Coding (or being DBA or analyst, depending on your area) to the level of getting an okay salary is quite trivial compared to that - from the PhD students I've seen the 'most unemployable' ones would be so not because of their ability to code but because of social/mental issues.

mcguire 13y ago

I am not surprised that it is competitive (PhD's in general are kind of oversupplied), but the form the competition takes: "Maybe you didn't publish as an undergraduate.... Maybe you can't even write a very compelling research statement yet." When I was applying, no undergraduates had published research. And the "research statement" could hardly be described as "compelling"; that was one of the points of the breadth requirements for the graduate program---my eventual research topic was completely unrelated to my interests or knowledge coming out of my undergraduate program.

HarryHirsch 13y ago
It's a positive development that admission into a decent PhD program requires research experience. Some people somehow cannot make the jump from classroom exercises to production work, and you would rather that they don't get accepted, instead of having to throw them out a year later. Besides, a research lab is a workplace after all, and some kids are completely missing the social skills that are needed in a working environment. You can't have that sort in a PhD program either.
- blahedo 13y ago
  > It's a positive development that admission into a decent PhD program requires research experience. No, it really really isn't. The vast majority of undergraduates have no effective access to research experience, even many that are fairly inquisitive and are receiving a pretty good education. This is especially true of undergraduates who are unable to afford tuition at top institutions (and increasingly even in-state public university tuition is unaffordable for the flagship universities that would be considered "top institutions). Requiring research experience in advance of grad school turns grad schools into an elitist echo chamber.
  - 001sky 13y ago
    I have to say, I agree with this. You risk optimizing to early around a local max, not a global one. Primarily due to lack of priors. However, I will be the first to admit true research is seriously a different aptitude than acing a lecture course. Advanced degree candidates should certainly be screened somehow for the latter. But my gut is that this is just optimizing for grant extraction. Truly powerful work is always second fiddle to the "more money" hampster-wheel that is peer-reviewed academic research.

ryuu 13y ago

Many US students do not go into PhD, because, as you mentioned, due to the strong job market (and also a 20k/year stipend). Most of the PhD students are foreign.