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Interesting that this comes from a woman. In my experience this is mostly men that systematically cover up not knowing or not understanding. I always know that

Interesting that this comes from a woman. In my experience this is mostly men that systematically cover up not knowing or not understanding. I always know that when I have to talk to a group of women I have to be well prepared. Men are generally easy to bullshit, they won't ask questions like "could you explain exactly how that works?", at least not in front of their peers. Women seem to have less of an issue with it, especially when there are no men around to give them condescending looks.

timje1 13y ago
Women suffer from imposter syndrome[0] more than men and seem somewhat less confident about their abilities in a variety of metrics (e.g. they contribute to wikipedia articles related to their area of expertise less than equally qualified men. They feel less confident speaking at conferences. The ADA initiative has a good piece on this [1] ) ---note: this is not anything to do with actual capabilities!--- Regardless of what causes this difference (cultural, social, biological, monkey-based evo psych, whatever) I would bet it is a factor here. So I posit that men may cover up their lack of knowledge, but it may also be a confidence issue - perhaps the men actually feel like they know already, and the women are less sure of their own knowledge. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome [1] http://adainitiative.org/2013/08/is-impostor-syndrome-keeping-women-out-of-open-technology-and-culture/ http://adainitiative.org/2013/08/is-impostor-syndrome-keepin...
- yetanotherphd 13y ago
  Yes, it's great to speculate on these things, as long as we rigorously discourage people from speculating that men are better than women in any dimension. We can have an academic discussion on the differences between men and women while avoiding sexism.
  - vdaniuk 13y ago
    Should we rigorously discourage people from speculating that women are better than men in any dimension?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
babysteps 13y ago
The men know everything syndrome. I think you can genuinely believe that you know something until you are called out on it, only to realise that you can't even explain it. If you don't know something just reply 'I don't know.' followed by 'Can you explain that to me?', you might be met with stunned silence. Or better still someone will have a go at explaining something. Sometimes the process of explaining it helps you cement your understanding. When working alone I really miss that type of interaction.
- sho_hn 13y ago
  > I think you can genuinely believe that you know something until you are called out on it, only to realise that you can't even explain it. When I was a young boy, my mom always used to tell me that the true benchmark of whether you understand something is whether you can explain it to someone else. It's a great self-checking habit to form indeed, because relating knowledge forces one to organize it and whittle it down to essentials, and often new insights spring forth in the process. So I really frequently grab someone blessed with curiosity and just talk at them about what I'm doing. Good old mom wisdom.
yetanotherphd 13y ago
Yeah, I just worry about how men will fare in an equal society where mens inherent inferiority isn't (more than) made up for by the patriarchy.
- elohesra 13y ago
  I honestly don't even know what to say to sexist drivel like this. Since several replies to the parent have gone along the same lines of making overly generalizing misandric statements that would be rightly called out as sexist gibberish if said about women, I suppose I'll just reply to this most egregious of the lot: Where have all the smart hackers gone who're so quick to point out that society is at fault when negative characters of overly-stereotyped women are raised? If I were to play their role -- and tacitly accept this farcical charade that men are all bluster and ego -- I'd point out that the reason that some men might be less inclined than some women to admit they don't know the answer to something is that they know that they'll be held accountable for not knowing that thing. In this stereotyped version of reality over which we all seem to be forming a merry echo-chamber, women are unlikely to be brutally admonished for being wrong or incompetent (perhaps because those around them expect no better of them, due to negative stereotypes). This gives them the freedom to admit they're wrong, or that they don't know a given thing. Men, on the other hand, will be held accountable for their lack of knowledge, making it a much riskier endeavour to admit they don't know something. Of course, this entire commentary presupposes that this phenomenon even exists. My team (half male, half female), shows this 'desire to be seen as knowledgeable' as a corollary of age and gender combined: the oldest member of the team never says 'could you explain that to me', and always attempts to BS his way through conversations, but the younger 20-something aged male members of the team are perfectly happy to admit it when they're out of their depth. Maybe this is unique to us? I doubt it: somehow I expect that this stereotype -- much like all other common stereotypes -- is overly broad and downright moronic.
  - yetanotherphd 13y ago
    Poe's law. I was being sarcastic but if I weren't I would have written something along the lines of what you wrote.
florbs 13y ago
"Women seem to have less of an issue with it, especially when there are no men around to give them condescending looks." I think that's the point right there: in the tech work space, it IS mostly men. Someone may speak up once or twice to ask a question, but when surrounded by people who generally don't, you just don't feel like being the annoying one all the time who holds up discussion.

timje1 13y ago

Women suffer from imposter syndrome[0] more than men and seem somewhat less confident about their abilities in a variety of metrics (e.g. they contribute to wikipedia articles related to their area of expertise less than equally qualified men. They feel less confident speaking at conferences. The ADA initiative has a good piece on this [1] ) ---note: this is not anything to do with actual capabilities!--- Regardless of what causes this difference (cultural, social, biological, monkey-based evo psych, whatever) I would bet it is a factor here. So I posit that men may cover up their lack of knowledge, but it may also be a confidence issue - perhaps the men actually feel like they know already, and the women are less sure of their own knowledge. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome [1] http://adainitiative.org/2013/08/is-impostor-syndrome-keeping-women-out-of-open-technology-and-culture/ http://adainitiative.org/2013/08/is-impostor-syndrome-keepin...

yetanotherphd 13y ago
Yes, it's great to speculate on these things, as long as we rigorously discourage people from speculating that men are better than women in any dimension. We can have an academic discussion on the differences between men and women while avoiding sexism.
- vdaniuk 13y ago
  Should we rigorously discourage people from speculating that women are better than men in any dimension?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

babysteps 13y ago

The men know everything syndrome. I think you can genuinely believe that you know something until you are called out on it, only to realise that you can't even explain it. If you don't know something just reply 'I don't know.' followed by 'Can you explain that to me?', you might be met with stunned silence. Or better still someone will have a go at explaining something. Sometimes the process of explaining it helps you cement your understanding. When working alone I really miss that type of interaction.

sho_hn 13y ago
> I think you can genuinely believe that you know something until you are called out on it, only to realise that you can't even explain it. When I was a young boy, my mom always used to tell me that the true benchmark of whether you understand something is whether you can explain it to someone else. It's a great self-checking habit to form indeed, because relating knowledge forces one to organize it and whittle it down to essentials, and often new insights spring forth in the process. So I really frequently grab someone blessed with curiosity and just talk at them about what I'm doing. Good old mom wisdom.

yetanotherphd 13y ago

Yeah, I just worry about how men will fare in an equal society where mens inherent inferiority isn't (more than) made up for by the patriarchy.

elohesra 13y ago
I honestly don't even know what to say to sexist drivel like this. Since several replies to the parent have gone along the same lines of making overly generalizing misandric statements that would be rightly called out as sexist gibberish if said about women, I suppose I'll just reply to this most egregious of the lot: Where have all the smart hackers gone who're so quick to point out that society is at fault when negative characters of overly-stereotyped women are raised? If I were to play their role -- and tacitly accept this farcical charade that men are all bluster and ego -- I'd point out that the reason that some men might be less inclined than some women to admit they don't know the answer to something is that they know that they'll be held accountable for not knowing that thing. In this stereotyped version of reality over which we all seem to be forming a merry echo-chamber, women are unlikely to be brutally admonished for being wrong or incompetent (perhaps because those around them expect no better of them, due to negative stereotypes). This gives them the freedom to admit they're wrong, or that they don't know a given thing. Men, on the other hand, will be held accountable for their lack of knowledge, making it a much riskier endeavour to admit they don't know something. Of course, this entire commentary presupposes that this phenomenon even exists. My team (half male, half female), shows this 'desire to be seen as knowledgeable' as a corollary of age and gender combined: the oldest member of the team never says 'could you explain that to me', and always attempts to BS his way through conversations, but the younger 20-something aged male members of the team are perfectly happy to admit it when they're out of their depth. Maybe this is unique to us? I doubt it: somehow I expect that this stereotype -- much like all other common stereotypes -- is overly broad and downright moronic.
- yetanotherphd 13y ago
  Poe's law. I was being sarcastic but if I weren't I would have written something along the lines of what you wrote.

florbs 13y ago

"Women seem to have less of an issue with it, especially when there are no men around to give them condescending looks." I think that's the point right there: in the tech work space, it IS mostly men. Someone may speak up once or twice to ask a question, but when surrounded by people who generally don't, you just don't feel like being the annoying one all the time who holds up discussion.