6 ms·

Lebanon's forgotten space programme

114 points by jdmitch 13y ago

anonu 13y ago
This is a very heart-warming story from this little country that I am from. Lebanese have long shown their ability to innovate and excel in the face of adversity. Sadly, today, we are at the mercy of politicians and religious extremists who just don't get it. Lebanon will always overcome.
- recuter 13y ago
  It is a goddamn shame what happened to that country over the years and I really do hope it will bounce back. My pet theory is that it is inevitable because of the internet. Do Lebanese nerds have an English hangout somewhere to conspire with nerds from elsewhere?
  - zefhous 13y ago
    There's an English tech-forum here: http://lebgeeks.com http://lebgeeks.com
    - moubarak 13y ago
      Leb geeks is a nice forum however it's very local.
  - a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
    What happened in Lebanon is part of a demographic pattern that has played out repeatedly in the middle east. By many accounts Syria was a lovely and peaceful place not so long ago. Before Cairo was the pit of poverty it is now it was by many accounts a very pleasant place.
    - entropy_ 13y ago
      That's pretty much what you get when colonist powers(France and Britain at the time) divide up the area between themselves without any regard for local sectarian differences[1]. The same pattern also played out in Africa. In Lebanon as in Syria(I'm Lebanese but have lived in Syria for an extended period of time in the past) the population is extremely heterogenous with racist feelings and ideology being a very common thing. To arbitrarily divide up the area while disregarding this is either an extremely foolish thing to do, or likelier a ploy by the then colonialist powers to retain long-term control of the area by keeping its population ever-divided. It doesn't exactly help, that into this already explosive mix was implanted the nation-state of Israel which as been in a state of perpetual war with its neighbours ever since. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes–Picot_Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes–Picot_Agreement
      - a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
        The borders and all that stuff is relevant, but the essential problem has been dysgenics, as I have heard it. Highly fertile, poor hicks came to demographically overwhelm the middle class in these places over multi-decade periods.
      - recuter 13y ago
        I think he is referring to Hezbollah. Secretarian violence along racial lines is an issue but not a given, what really makes things explosive is religion. I'm Israeli btw and terrified of high birth rates amongst the ultra religious here. It seems we might escape this problem as things stand but it sure does garner a lot of empathy with me.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - anonu 13y ago
    1. The article highlights many ways in which Lebanese people excel in the face of adversity. Manoug Manougian appears to have built fairly successful rockets with minimal funds and resources. 2. One need only read the daily news that comes from the region and specifically, Lebanon, to understand that the country is stifled by the ongoing conflicts in Syria and meddling from all sides: Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, US, etc.. Regardless, Lebanon's banking sector remains strong. Property values continue to rise. Its people look beyond the current situation and invest for the future.
- notproud 13y ago
  I hope you are right but I have my doubts. I am a Lebanese who’s trying to Love Lebanon. The Lebanese ability to innovate is motivated by personal gains regardless of (and sometimes at the expense of) the benefit to the country as a whole. And that’s because there has rarely been a sense of unity in this country since its inception by the west (even during the so called “Paris of the middle east” era). The first mention of the term Lebanese in books was in the 40’s according to Ngram viewer. http://goo.gl/6T8jhp http://goo.gl/6T8jhp. Before that the area was comprised of diverse clans and tribes loosely held together by the Ottoman Empire. I doubt that Lebanese from diverse backgrounds would have been able to do anything useful before fighting each other on who’s the boss!! BTW the university and guys mentioned in the article are of Armenian origins.
  - seszett 13y ago
    You're not being totally honest here by using "lebanese" in the English corpus, as "libanais" in the French corpus has been mentioned at least from 1741: http://goo.gl/Mu1Qlv http://goo.gl/Mu1Qlv
- mathattack 13y ago
  I've worked with many Lebanese, and found them to be very intelligent and resourceful. The country had a huge brain drain to France and elsewhere during their civil war.
  - entropy_ 13y ago
    Not just during the war. It's been on-going ever since. I usually tell foreigners that our prime export is young engineers. It is very rare for young and talented programmers to stay here. If they have the means to leave for the states or Europe and study and then work there, very few give it a second thought.
jdmitch 13y ago
There is also an interview with Manoug Manougian, the founder of the rocket club, here: https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/10questions/10-questions-with-manoug-manougian https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/10questions/10-questions-with-ma... apparently this year is the first time he has been back to Lebanon since he left in 1966.
- inglesp 13y ago
  He sounds like a lovely guy.
ChuckMcM 13y ago
It was certainly true that in the US and the Soviet Union that the space program's primary "customer" was the military. It is an acceptable cover story to be "exploring space" when you are working on technologies that make for better ICBMs. And that was one of the interesting things about SpaceX to me, here was a company that didn't have some defense "minder" in the back rooms somewhere calling the shots. The other thing that this reminded me of was that the history of the Arab world early on is one of excellent science and discovery. It would be nice to get back to that and away from what passes for state craft in the middle east. Sadly that seems like a harder problem than sending someone to the moon.
- masklinn 13y ago
  > It was certainly true that in the US and the Soviet Union that the space program's primary "customer" was the military. Not just in the US and Soviets, France's Diamant[0] was derived from its military "gemstones" sounding rockets program, the UK's Black Arrow originates from the Blue Streak MRBM program[1]. > It is an acceptable cover story to be "exploring space" when you are working on technologies that make for better ICBMs. And that was one of the interesting things about SpaceX to me I don't believe that's been the case for ISAS (now part of JAXA), it's unlikely the WWII peace treaty would have allowed for japanese ICBM development. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamant [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Streak_missile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Streak_missile
  - ChuckMcM 13y ago
    There is some thought that the Epsilon [1] development was primarily a launch vehicle that could strike back at the PRK should they decide to do something. That thinking was motivated by the design criteria of 'solid fuel' (easy to store in a bunker, no delay in fueling it in responding) and 'minimal crew' (not like you can station 20 or 40 people at a missile bunker). Of course I have no insight into whether or not that was their thinking but folks I know who are part of the 'establishment' seem to think that is the rationale Japan used. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epsilon_%28rocket%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epsilon_%28rocket%29
masklinn 13y ago
> During the 1960s, the US and the Soviet Union competed for supremacy in space. But there was another contestant in the race - the Lebanese Rocket Society Ignoring the France[0], Japan[1], the UK[2] and China[3], that is. Kind of a weird hook. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamant [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(rocket_family) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(rocket_family) [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_March_1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_March_1
- a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
  Don't forget the ONSP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6xJzAYYrX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6xJzAYYrX8
- mturmon 13y ago
  Like a lot of early-stage technologies, it was easy to get in and do novel things when it was in its infancy. The early U.S. work had the same amateur characteristics as in TFA: http://www.space.com/13463-nasa-jet-propulsion-lab-rocket-test-anniversary.html http://www.space.com/13463-nasa-jet-propulsion-lab-rocket-te... Sand bags to hide behind, fuel lines strung up on sticks, and a case of Crisco. What more could you want?
JVIDEL 13y ago
I think nothing shows how big the space race really was than the fact that so many countries poured resources into building a national space program See the case of Argentina: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en-419&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fes.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHistoria_de_la_astron%C3%A1utica_en_la_Argentina http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en-419&sl=auto&tl=e... Another case worth mentioning is a forerunner of SpaceX the West German company OTRAG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTRAG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTRAG

114 points by jdmitch 13y ago

anonu 13y ago

This is a very heart-warming story from this little country that I am from. Lebanese have long shown their ability to innovate and excel in the face of adversity. Sadly, today, we are at the mercy of politicians and religious extremists who just don't get it. Lebanon will always overcome.

recuter 13y ago
It is a goddamn shame what happened to that country over the years and I really do hope it will bounce back. My pet theory is that it is inevitable because of the internet. Do Lebanese nerds have an English hangout somewhere to conspire with nerds from elsewhere?
- zefhous 13y ago
  There's an English tech-forum here: http://lebgeeks.com http://lebgeeks.com
  - moubarak 13y ago
    Leb geeks is a nice forum however it's very local.
- a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
  What happened in Lebanon is part of a demographic pattern that has played out repeatedly in the middle east. By many accounts Syria was a lovely and peaceful place not so long ago. Before Cairo was the pit of poverty it is now it was by many accounts a very pleasant place.
  - entropy_ 13y ago
    That's pretty much what you get when colonist powers(France and Britain at the time) divide up the area between themselves without any regard for local sectarian differences[1]. The same pattern also played out in Africa. In Lebanon as in Syria(I'm Lebanese but have lived in Syria for an extended period of time in the past) the population is extremely heterogenous with racist feelings and ideology being a very common thing. To arbitrarily divide up the area while disregarding this is either an extremely foolish thing to do, or likelier a ploy by the then colonialist powers to retain long-term control of the area by keeping its population ever-divided. It doesn't exactly help, that into this already explosive mix was implanted the nation-state of Israel which as been in a state of perpetual war with its neighbours ever since. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes–Picot_Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes–Picot_Agreement
    - a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
      The borders and all that stuff is relevant, but the essential problem has been dysgenics, as I have heard it. Highly fertile, poor hicks came to demographically overwhelm the middle class in these places over multi-decade periods.
    - recuter 13y ago
      I think he is referring to Hezbollah. Secretarian violence along racial lines is an issue but not a given, what really makes things explosive is religion. I'm Israeli btw and terrified of high birth rates amongst the ultra religious here. It seems we might escape this problem as things stand but it sure does garner a lot of empathy with me.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- anonu 13y ago
  1. The article highlights many ways in which Lebanese people excel in the face of adversity. Manoug Manougian appears to have built fairly successful rockets with minimal funds and resources. 2. One need only read the daily news that comes from the region and specifically, Lebanon, to understand that the country is stifled by the ongoing conflicts in Syria and meddling from all sides: Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, US, etc.. Regardless, Lebanon's banking sector remains strong. Property values continue to rise. Its people look beyond the current situation and invest for the future.
notproud 13y ago
I hope you are right but I have my doubts. I am a Lebanese who’s trying to Love Lebanon. The Lebanese ability to innovate is motivated by personal gains regardless of (and sometimes at the expense of) the benefit to the country as a whole. And that’s because there has rarely been a sense of unity in this country since its inception by the west (even during the so called “Paris of the middle east” era). The first mention of the term Lebanese in books was in the 40’s according to Ngram viewer. http://goo.gl/6T8jhp http://goo.gl/6T8jhp. Before that the area was comprised of diverse clans and tribes loosely held together by the Ottoman Empire. I doubt that Lebanese from diverse backgrounds would have been able to do anything useful before fighting each other on who’s the boss!! BTW the university and guys mentioned in the article are of Armenian origins.
- seszett 13y ago
  You're not being totally honest here by using "lebanese" in the English corpus, as "libanais" in the French corpus has been mentioned at least from 1741: http://goo.gl/Mu1Qlv http://goo.gl/Mu1Qlv
mathattack 13y ago
I've worked with many Lebanese, and found them to be very intelligent and resourceful. The country had a huge brain drain to France and elsewhere during their civil war.
- entropy_ 13y ago
  Not just during the war. It's been on-going ever since. I usually tell foreigners that our prime export is young engineers. It is very rare for young and talented programmers to stay here. If they have the means to leave for the states or Europe and study and then work there, very few give it a second thought.

jdmitch 13y ago

There is also an interview with Manoug Manougian, the founder of the rocket club, here: https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/10questions/10-questions-with-manoug-manougian https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/10questions/10-questions-with-ma... apparently this year is the first time he has been back to Lebanon since he left in 1966.

inglesp 13y ago
He sounds like a lovely guy.

ChuckMcM 13y ago

It was certainly true that in the US and the Soviet Union that the space program's primary "customer" was the military. It is an acceptable cover story to be "exploring space" when you are working on technologies that make for better ICBMs. And that was one of the interesting things about SpaceX to me, here was a company that didn't have some defense "minder" in the back rooms somewhere calling the shots. The other thing that this reminded me of was that the history of the Arab world early on is one of excellent science and discovery. It would be nice to get back to that and away from what passes for state craft in the middle east. Sadly that seems like a harder problem than sending someone to the moon.

masklinn 13y ago
> It was certainly true that in the US and the Soviet Union that the space program's primary "customer" was the military. Not just in the US and Soviets, France's Diamant[0] was derived from its military "gemstones" sounding rockets program, the UK's Black Arrow originates from the Blue Streak MRBM program[1]. > It is an acceptable cover story to be "exploring space" when you are working on technologies that make for better ICBMs. And that was one of the interesting things about SpaceX to me I don't believe that's been the case for ISAS (now part of JAXA), it's unlikely the WWII peace treaty would have allowed for japanese ICBM development. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamant [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Streak_missile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Streak_missile
- ChuckMcM 13y ago
  There is some thought that the Epsilon [1] development was primarily a launch vehicle that could strike back at the PRK should they decide to do something. That thinking was motivated by the design criteria of 'solid fuel' (easy to store in a bunker, no delay in fueling it in responding) and 'minimal crew' (not like you can station 20 or 40 people at a missile bunker). Of course I have no insight into whether or not that was their thinking but folks I know who are part of the 'establishment' seem to think that is the rationale Japan used. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epsilon_%28rocket%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epsilon_%28rocket%29

masklinn 13y ago

> During the 1960s, the US and the Soviet Union competed for supremacy in space. But there was another contestant in the race - the Lebanese Rocket Society Ignoring the France[0], Japan[1], the UK[2] and China[3], that is. Kind of a weird hook. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamant [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(rocket_family) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(rocket_family) [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_March_1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_March_1

a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
Don't forget the ONSP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6xJzAYYrX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6xJzAYYrX8
mturmon 13y ago
Like a lot of early-stage technologies, it was easy to get in and do novel things when it was in its infancy. The early U.S. work had the same amateur characteristics as in TFA: http://www.space.com/13463-nasa-jet-propulsion-lab-rocket-test-anniversary.html http://www.space.com/13463-nasa-jet-propulsion-lab-rocket-te... Sand bags to hide behind, fuel lines strung up on sticks, and a case of Crisco. What more could you want?

JVIDEL 13y ago

I think nothing shows how big the space race really was than the fact that so many countries poured resources into building a national space program See the case of Argentina: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en-419&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fes.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHistoria_de_la_astron%C3%A1utica_en_la_Argentina http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en-419&sl=auto&tl=e... Another case worth mentioning is a forerunner of SpaceX the West German company OTRAG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTRAG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTRAG