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TPP Leak Confirms the Worst: US Still Trying to Trade Away Internet Freedoms
- jackhammons 13y agoWhen did governments go from trying to act in the best interests of their citizens so as to make their lives better and safer to restricting individual freedoms so as to create bigger profits for private companies?
- jsmeaton 13y agohttp://money.howstuffworks.com/campaign-finance1.htm http://money.howstuffworks.com/campaign-finance1.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_boy_network http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_boy_network
- chongli 13y agoThis problem (corruption) is a lot older than that. Hell, it's as old as government itself.
- olefoo 13y agoThus has it ever been. The history of government is the history of privilege and it's protection. That the Enlightenment of the 18th Century brought forth modern notions of representative democracy was in large part a reaction to the failure and catastrophic overthrow of the feudal order that had existed prior to that time. The American and the French revolutions made it clear that some form of safety valve that allowed class conflict to be mediated and ameliorated was better than the alternatives as far as the interests of the upper classes.
- dangero 13y agoCan you recommend any good books on this topic? You just blew my mind.
- vezzy-fnord 13y agoYour mind was blown from the idea that a government does not necessarily exist to serve the interest of its people, or the little historical blurb? In any case, the heavily ingrained belief of government benevolence in contemporary Western societies, is horrific. But not surprising, with minds like Edward L. Bernays at work (his 1928 book Propaganda should be mandatory reading for everyone).
- chm 13y agoI read Propaganda last year. It is much less interesting and "magical" than some hype it to be.
- erikschoster 13y agoI don't mean to speak for the person you're addressing, but I suspect this was the part that was surprising: "some form of safety valve that allowed class conflict to be mediated and ameliorated was better than the alternatives as far as the interests of the upper classes". That's not an obvious truth, and doesn't deserve self-important snark. I've also read 'Propaganda', and would also recommend it despite its age.
- vidarh 13y agoIt's been obvious since before Bismarck introduced the welfare state in the 1840's onwards. His opposition tried to tarnish his image by claiming he was introducing "state socialism", after which he himself started using the same term about his welfare programs, and explicitly made the point that it was intended to counter the influence of the socialists and calm the masses. Bismarck, which was an ultra-conservative monarchist, actually went further than the majority of the socialist opposition at the time in anticipation of further demands, in order to quell their support.
- brosco45 13y agoPower corrupts.
- detcader 13y agoIs it even useful anymore to talk as if there's any separation between governments and private companies at this point?
- grecy 13y agoA good place to start looking was allowing unlimited campaign contributions. No democracy functions that way.
- diorray 13y ago"Water sleeps, and the enemy is sleepless"
- sounds 13y agoLike I mentioned in the other thread on the TPP Leak, the TPP could immediately have the following effects, if it is enacted into law by the participating nations. I picked the ones you would most likely notice: 1. 3-strikes laws in all participating nations. Note that the US and France have already effectively abandoned their attempted three-strikes laws [1] [2] [3], but would likely reinstate them. 2. dvdcss and UEFI Secure Boot circumvention (including shim loaders) will become illegal in enough countries to have chilling effects on open source innovation 3. significant extension of patents for medication, increasing healthcare costs 4. additional regulation of internet backbone providers – to perform deep packet inspection for government investigation of copyright infringement. This would use taxpayer dollars to enforce dying copyright regimes. I assume governments would be delighted to have justification to tap the internet at backbones. 5. End of works entering the public domain. Copyright term extensions are likely just as the US has done, so the public domain may not see new additions for a long time. I want to mention the significant curtailing of fair use in Europe, which would train young artists not to remix or reuse others' ideas. However, it might take up to 5 years to feel the effects. [1] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/07/france-defangs-its-anti-piracy-law-removes-disconnection-penalty/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/07/france-defangs-it... (I'm citing Ars here mainly because they follow copyright law pretty closely. Please use google for other sources.) [2] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/heres-what-an-actual-six-strikes-copyright-alert-looks-like/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/heres-what-an-act... [3] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/07/major-isps-agree-to-six-strikes-copyright-enforcement-plan/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/07/major-isps-agree-...
- mindslight 13y agoAnd keep in mind the people giving money, respect, and utilization to Netflix, Hulu, iTunes, Youtube, Xbox, Steam, etc are helping to support this continued insanity. These type of services are not the Internet future - they're the past reincarnated to deliver over IP.
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- r0h1n 13y agoIt gives me hope that large and significant countries like India and China are not (yet) part of the TPP, and thus this isn't applicable to the entire world. I'm sure the US realizes this, which is why there's been some talk to bring in India, South Korea, Thailand and even China (I say "even" because China apparently feels that the TPP is an "anti-China club") into the TPP fold. >> Bring India into the TPP [Politico], http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/bring-india-into-the-tpp-95049.html http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/bring-india-into-the-t... Given India's long-standing objections towards strict copyright and patent laws, and as an Indian, I hope we stay clear of the TPP.
- joeshevland 13y agoAs an Australian (US by birth unfort, I actually hate my country of birth at this stage because of their governance), I'm actually looking to China and non-partisan countries to fix this mess. The solution isn't going to come from a country so entrenched in corruption.
- duncan_bayne 13y agoMaybe it's time to kill Copyright for good (in both possible meanings of good): http://praxeology.net/anticopyright.htm http://praxeology.net/anticopyright.htm Edited: and by "maybe it's" I mean "It's about damn time". Edited again: this quote from Jefferson is highlighted on that Anti Copyright Resources page, and nicely captures the spirit of why we might choose to kill Copyright: ... He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.
- chrismcb 13y agoWhat do ideas and inventions have to do with copyright? No, it isn't time to kill Copyright, that would be a very bad idea. But certainly reduce the limits. Much less than the current "greater than the average lifespan"
- x0054 13y agoIt makes no sense to link the duration of the copyright work to the life of the author. Say some one writes a book and then promptly gets hit by a car. Why should their book have less of a copyright term then a book written by and author that goes on to live for 80 more years. Copyright term should be set number of years after first publication. 20-30 years would be reasonable. Copyright is absolutely necessary to allow authors to make money from their work. Short term rights, 10-30 years of so, benefit the authors the most. Long terms of 100+ years only favor the distributors.
- charleslmunger 13y agoI think part of the theory behind the "life of the author" is that there shouldn't be a disincentive to produce your work now. If you're a creator of some kind, you might not publish a book you're writing until you think it'll be ready. In single-author creative endeavors, like book publishing, you want to encourage people to create all they can before they get hit by a bus.
- linuxhansl 13y agoOf course. The US is becoming a service/IP economy. It is no longer producing many physical goods. So pushing these laws worldwide is essential for economic success.
- hdevalence 13y agoNo, because these laws arguably hinder economic success in these industries. The success of the internet, which is largely built around open protocols, and open source, would indicate that perhaps copyright/patent maximalism that forces a "get permission first" culture is not a good idea. For an extremely detailed argument on why copyright and patents hinder innovation in general, see the book "Against Intellectual Monopoly" by Boldrin and Levine. You can find a copy on the internet using, e.g., Google. For a more story-based exposition, see the "This American Life" episodes "When Patents Attack".
- thrownaway2424 13y ago"It is no longer producing many physical goods." LOLWUT, as they say on the internet. The US currently enjoys more industrial production than at any time in its history. It is still the largest producer of manufactured goods in the world. "U.S. Manufacturing in International Perspective" http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42135.pdf http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42135.pdf US Census Bureau - New Manufacturing Orders http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d2p7r4l1574rh_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=orders&fdim_y=order_type:New&fdim_y=seasonality:Seasonally+adjusted&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:US&ifdim=country&tstart=697968000000&tend=1373698800000&ind=false&icfg&iconSize=0.5 http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d2p7r4l1574rh_&c...
- mcphilip 13y agoIf you're impressed primarily by absolute dollar amounts of value added, then sure, U.S. manufacturing looks good on a bar chart comparison of G7 countries. However, the rest of the FAS report is stuffed full of metrics showing the rapid decline of the manufacturing sector.
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- lcasela 13y agoHaha.
- mercurial 13y agoI find it striking that these people are seemingly willing to spend years negotiating on this, and presumably spend a lot of money in the process, while not having learned anything about the failure of the previous agreement. It seems also clear that the US trade representative is not interested in balancing the interest of the public with business interests.
- ordinary 13y agoHistory shows that a people roused is a force without equal. But it also teaches us that rousing a people is far from an easy task, and it becomes harder the more often you try it, or the more often it's necessary. This creates an incentive to try again and again and again. The costs are minimal (lobbying is cheap when you're a multi-billion dollar industry), the risk of blowback practically non-existant (no one boycots Disney), and the potential rewards are huge. Therefore, I think you're incorrect when you say these people have not learned anything. Defeating one treaty or proposed law does nothing to prevent them from trying to pass the same reforms at a later point.
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- DigitalSea 13y agoWas anyone honestly expecting anything good to come from TPP? We've known since the first draft leak back in 2011 leaked that the whole purpose of TPP was not to benefit anyone except copyright lobbyists and pharmaceutical companies. Why else do you think these talks are being secretly held? If the TPP is approved in all participating countries, it has the potential to really wreak havoc. What we are seeing here whether or not you understand it that well is bad news for open source, bad news for anyone that uses the Internet and bad news for countries that rely on cheaper generic drugs to treat illnesses. What a sad world we live in when lobbyists and rogue politicians are conspiring to destroy the world. And while it could be worse, if TPP passes this is only the beginning of what would be a very destructive agreement.
- frank_boyd 13y ago"We must handle this in secret! Trust us! It's for your own good! We just want to protect you from the danger!" Why do I keep hearing this bullshit from all governments all over the World? (The last time, it was the NSA saying we should let them set up the police state.) Secrecy has nothing to do with democracy. It kills it. (And that seems to be the goal, lately.)
- joeshevland 13y agoAnyone else starting to feel worn down and disgusted by the behavior of your government? I don't see a lot of change, just a lot of dissection of how bad it is. If the mechanism to change the problem is broken, how do you change the problem?
- junto 13y agoWhat I find worst of all, is that our governments are using our tax dollars to negotiate and write this stuff behind our backs in order to shaft us, the people.
- joeshevland 13y agoIts almost Terry Pratcher'esque. I'm seriously depressed about how shit our system is.
- joeshevland 13y agoTerry Pratchett
- CalRobert 13y agoI emigrated. I suggest all others of like minds do the same. Let the US suffer brain drain for a change (unintentional rhyming ftw!)
- vijayr 13y agoWhere did you move? Also, is there any guarantee that other countries won't create similar laws/agreements etc in future (may be not today, but what about tomorrow)?
- CalRobert 13y agoIreland, which obviously tends to follow along with whatever the US wants, but I like to think at least my taxes aren't _directly_ supporting so many of the things I find morally reprehensible. And they gave me a visa, so there's that.
- joeshevland 13y agoPunch drunk from the abuse, how much worse can it get?
- benbojangles 13y agoWhy isn't China in the TPP?
- Fuxy 13y agoThis is completely idiotic and obviously not in the best interest of the citizens of that country. Why do we even have this crap? Trade agreements are obviously just a way for big corporations make into law all their stupid ideas. Corporations shouldn't have a say in law to begin with that will inevitably lead to abuse of power. This looks just like a price setting agreement between large corporation (clearly illegal) but instead of setting prices the set laws in their favor. Considerably worse and should be just as illegal.
- Sniperfish 13y agoSome interesting discussions by KEI http://keionline.org/node/1825 http://keionline.org/node/1825 Having not been following the TPP terribly thoroughly I did not realise how wide in scope some of its provisions would appear to be.