4 ms·

Joining startups right now is generally a very bad idea unless you join as founder or director level +

simonw 13y ago
That's only true if you are doing it purely for the equity (which is a terribly idea). Many startups will pay salaries that match (or almost-match) those of larger companies, but the work at a startup is likely to be much more interesting - you'll usually move faster and learn more than at a larger organisation.
- rhizome 13y ago
  Many startups will pay salaries that match (or almost-match) those of larger companies Is this really true? I've heard of larger companies justifying lower salaries through the value of stability.
  - brosco45 13y ago
    Larger software companies generally pays more, a lot more in some cases than startups. Startups generally try to match salaries now, however, that is not enough considering the 1 year lifespan of most startups today, they need to raise in 1 year after the last round. The risk is the economic cycle where we seem to be near the top.
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    This is anecdotal - but the salaries quoted to me by big companies ("AAA", well-known companies even) have always been lower than what startups have offered. I've always perceived this as an extra upside for the risk of being on the sidewalk in a year's time.
    - brosco45 13y ago
      You are doing something wrong, make sure to anchor a high salary early on.
      - potatolicious 13y ago
        I have. The problem has always been the onerous approval chain in big companies, or crappy recruiters who fill the offer with discretionary bonuses that add up to my asking price. With startups I can actually negotiate and get results. With big companies every major hike in the offer needs to go through a long approval chain. In a few instances I've been off the market by the time they came back to me. I've also had less jerking around with the aforementioned bonus structures from startups. With big companies I've consistently gotten "$Y base plus up to $Z discretionary", where Y + Z adds up to my asking. I've taken one such offer before and gotten completely shafted (i.e., highly positive performance review, bonus nowhere to be found). Startups are much, much more willing to simply pay my asking salary as base. My impression with big companies is that their recruiters are their greatest liability. I've had recruiters ask for my salary be lowered because they're paying for my move. No thanks, I know exactly how much a move costs and it's nowhere near the (permanent! not one time!) reduction in salary. Things like that make a negotiation go south quickly. When it comes to smaller companies I've never been treated by HR/recruitment like I was born yesterday, whereas that experience is the norm with big companies.
        brosco45 13y ago
        Ah, ios/mobile. That is the one place where the big companies are underpaying because most of them don't need mobile apps. I heard of 200/300k for iOS devs though, so keep looking :)
        potatolicious 13y ago
        At the time I was still working in backend. I also have no complaints about my pay ;) But my experiences with big companies have left with me little desire to talk to them. It's always been a frustrating experience full of low-ball offers and treating me like an idiot. Every time I've dealt with big-company salary negotiations it's felt like buying a used car. "Oh, we absolutely cannot go higher than that ceiling" "Welp, sorry then" "No wait, we talked to our VP..." - startups (or really, just smaller companies) have always been much more transparent and much more direct in their dealings.
- brosco45 13y ago
  Those people get both great equity and great salary. They can't lose. You can.
- Matt_Mickiewicz 13y ago
  We analyzed $500 million in job offers, and seed stage companies are the only ones still trying to hire senior software engineers for $120K or less... see the chart here: https://devauc-static.s3.amazonaws.com/blog/2013/10/Late-State-Company-Salaries-4.png https://devauc-static.s3.amazonaws.com/blog/2013/10/Late-Sta...
  - namenotrequired 13y ago
    The link is inaccessible, but from your comment - The fact that some exist in one group and none in the other still says nothing about the median or mean. In itself it might be a weak indicator of higher variance at best.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- tsunamifury 13y ago
  I suspect this won't last forever as more founders notice that salary matching reduces their runway while not increasing the commitment or quality of employees. Never underestimate the power of underpaying but deeply investing personally in your employees at a startup. Many people will produce better work at 70-80k with serious facetime with the CEO and complete control over product or business strategies. People appreciate agency over their work a lot more than many assume.

That's only true if you are doing it purely for the equity (which is a terribly idea). Many startups will pay salaries that match (or almost-match) those of larger companies, but the work at a startup is likely to be much more interesting - you'll usually move faster and learn more than at a larger organisation.

rhizome 13y ago
Many startups will pay salaries that match (or almost-match) those of larger companies Is this really true? I've heard of larger companies justifying lower salaries through the value of stability.
- brosco45 13y ago
  Larger software companies generally pays more, a lot more in some cases than startups. Startups generally try to match salaries now, however, that is not enough considering the 1 year lifespan of most startups today, they need to raise in 1 year after the last round. The risk is the economic cycle where we seem to be near the top.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  This is anecdotal - but the salaries quoted to me by big companies ("AAA", well-known companies even) have always been lower than what startups have offered. I've always perceived this as an extra upside for the risk of being on the sidewalk in a year's time.
  - brosco45 13y ago
    You are doing something wrong, make sure to anchor a high salary early on.
    - potatolicious 13y ago
      I have. The problem has always been the onerous approval chain in big companies, or crappy recruiters who fill the offer with discretionary bonuses that add up to my asking price. With startups I can actually negotiate and get results. With big companies every major hike in the offer needs to go through a long approval chain. In a few instances I've been off the market by the time they came back to me. I've also had less jerking around with the aforementioned bonus structures from startups. With big companies I've consistently gotten "$Y base plus up to $Z discretionary", where Y + Z adds up to my asking. I've taken one such offer before and gotten completely shafted (i.e., highly positive performance review, bonus nowhere to be found). Startups are much, much more willing to simply pay my asking salary as base. My impression with big companies is that their recruiters are their greatest liability. I've had recruiters ask for my salary be lowered because they're paying for my move. No thanks, I know exactly how much a move costs and it's nowhere near the (permanent! not one time!) reduction in salary. Things like that make a negotiation go south quickly. When it comes to smaller companies I've never been treated by HR/recruitment like I was born yesterday, whereas that experience is the norm with big companies.
      - brosco45 13y ago
        Ah, ios/mobile. That is the one place where the big companies are underpaying because most of them don't need mobile apps. I heard of 200/300k for iOS devs though, so keep looking :)
        potatolicious 13y ago
        At the time I was still working in backend. I also have no complaints about my pay ;) But my experiences with big companies have left with me little desire to talk to them. It's always been a frustrating experience full of low-ball offers and treating me like an idiot. Every time I've dealt with big-company salary negotiations it's felt like buying a used car. "Oh, we absolutely cannot go higher than that ceiling" "Welp, sorry then" "No wait, we talked to our VP..." - startups (or really, just smaller companies) have always been much more transparent and much more direct in their dealings.
brosco45 13y ago
Those people get both great equity and great salary. They can't lose. You can.
Matt_Mickiewicz 13y ago
We analyzed $500 million in job offers, and seed stage companies are the only ones still trying to hire senior software engineers for $120K or less... see the chart here: https://devauc-static.s3.amazonaws.com/blog/2013/10/Late-State-Company-Salaries-4.png https://devauc-static.s3.amazonaws.com/blog/2013/10/Late-Sta...
- namenotrequired 13y ago
  The link is inaccessible, but from your comment - The fact that some exist in one group and none in the other still says nothing about the median or mean. In itself it might be a weak indicator of higher variance at best.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
tsunamifury 13y ago
I suspect this won't last forever as more founders notice that salary matching reduces their runway while not increasing the commitment or quality of employees. Never underestimate the power of underpaying but deeply investing personally in your employees at a startup. Many people will produce better work at 70-80k with serious facetime with the CEO and complete control over product or business strategies. People appreciate agency over their work a lot more than many assume.