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I don't see mention either way of subscription/cloud requirements. If it isn't fully self-contained, then the risks out-weigh the benefits. Edit: Drilling dow

by Amadou 13y ago

I don't see mention either way of subscription/cloud requirements. If it isn't fully self-contained, then the risks out-weigh the benefits. Edit: Drilling down to the ninja blocks pages I see mention of a "ninja cloud account" as being required to install drivers. That sort of unnecessary external dependency is a deal-breaker for me, essentially negating the entire value proposition of open-source. http://ninjablocks.com/blogs/how-to/9555237-installing-drivers-on-your-ninja-block http://ninjablocks.com/blogs/how-to/9555237-installing-drive...

malandrew 13y ago
I agree. Why not open-source the other software parts under some fairly protective license like AGPL for the server and Artistic License v2 for the client interface to the AGPL-ed server. These licenses adequately protect you from a commercial entity coming and stealing the mass market business opportunity or the community, while still making it possible to support individual hackers like Amadou that can contribute a lot, but won't unless it is open source end to end.
- Amadou 13y ago
  I don't wish to give the impression that hacking on the hardware is my goal. I could, but I'd rather not. The reason external dependencies are a problem for me is that they take away my ability to control my system. If I have to hack together something to use it without the servers, then that's a marginal improvement over having to reverse engineer the protocol on the wire, but it's still really customer unfriendly. Anyone who buys this system and makes it central to their home's operation (as intended) becomes exceptionally vulnerable to the decisions of the people who control the servers. Even if the developers' interests always align with my interests, I'm still vulnerable if their system gets hacked, if they go bankrupt (and shut down) or if they are acquired by a company with a different management perspective. It would be like buying a car that has to check in with Lexus every time I want to start the engine.
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    It would be like buying a car that has to check in with [ed: GM] every time I want to start the engine. Isn't that called OnStar?
rsync 13y ago
Agreed. I was, for instance, very excited about the new nest smart-smoke-alarms and just stopped reading and went away when I saw the first mention of my "nest cloud account" or "nest login" or whatever it was... Thank god Sonos came out back in 2005 (or so) and was built without all of this nonsense - no doubt if it was released today there would be a mySonos web login account cloud identity blah blah blah...
nitrogen 13y ago
Mandatory cloud connectivity is detrimental to the usability and security of an automation system. I, for one, will never add non-optional cloud features to my own automation products. Some day I want to see more systems with a decentralized architecture, where cloud servers, if used at all, only help facilitate a secure VPN connection between the user's device (e.g. a phone) and the user's home network.
- thatguydan 13y ago
  The code on the device will be open source. If you wrote something that made it easier to use when the internet was down (or you weren't connected at all) and sent a pull-request you'd have a good shot of it being accepted. When the backend is released as O/S too there will no doubt be some effort towards getting it running on the device itself.
- amirmc 13y ago
  I'm working with others on a FOSS toolstack that makes it easier to build decentralised systems. Take a look and let me know what you think. http://nymote.org/ http://nymote.org/
  - Amadou 13y ago
    All I get is a spinning blue dot. Your site is unfriendly to people who take their security seriously. That's not a good sign.
    - amirmc 13y ago
      Thanks for the feedback. I don't understand your second comment though, how is it 'unfriendly to people who take their security seriously'? You can email me instead, if you prefer.
      - pjc50 13y ago
        I'm guessing it doesn't work if you have javascript turned off, due to the unnecessary "splash screen". It does look like you're addressing the right problems with "Signpost" and "Irminsule". Am currently reading your slides.
jamesaguilar 13y ago
Risk of what?
smelliot 13y ago
You can also just SSH in and 'git pull' a driver if you prefer =)

by Amadou 13y ago

malandrew 13y ago

I agree. Why not open-source the other software parts under some fairly protective license like AGPL for the server and Artistic License v2 for the client interface to the AGPL-ed server. These licenses adequately protect you from a commercial entity coming and stealing the mass market business opportunity or the community, while still making it possible to support individual hackers like Amadou that can contribute a lot, but won't unless it is open source end to end.

Amadou 13y ago
I don't wish to give the impression that hacking on the hardware is my goal. I could, but I'd rather not. The reason external dependencies are a problem for me is that they take away my ability to control my system. If I have to hack together something to use it without the servers, then that's a marginal improvement over having to reverse engineer the protocol on the wire, but it's still really customer unfriendly. Anyone who buys this system and makes it central to their home's operation (as intended) becomes exceptionally vulnerable to the decisions of the people who control the servers. Even if the developers' interests always align with my interests, I'm still vulnerable if their system gets hacked, if they go bankrupt (and shut down) or if they are acquired by a company with a different management perspective. It would be like buying a car that has to check in with Lexus every time I want to start the engine.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  It would be like buying a car that has to check in with [ed: GM] every time I want to start the engine. Isn't that called OnStar?

rsync 13y ago

Agreed. I was, for instance, very excited about the new nest smart-smoke-alarms and just stopped reading and went away when I saw the first mention of my "nest cloud account" or "nest login" or whatever it was... Thank god Sonos came out back in 2005 (or so) and was built without all of this nonsense - no doubt if it was released today there would be a mySonos web login account cloud identity blah blah blah...

nitrogen 13y ago

Mandatory cloud connectivity is detrimental to the usability and security of an automation system. I, for one, will never add non-optional cloud features to my own automation products. Some day I want to see more systems with a decentralized architecture, where cloud servers, if used at all, only help facilitate a secure VPN connection between the user's device (e.g. a phone) and the user's home network.

thatguydan 13y ago
The code on the device will be open source. If you wrote something that made it easier to use when the internet was down (or you weren't connected at all) and sent a pull-request you'd have a good shot of it being accepted. When the backend is released as O/S too there will no doubt be some effort towards getting it running on the device itself.
amirmc 13y ago
I'm working with others on a FOSS toolstack that makes it easier to build decentralised systems. Take a look and let me know what you think. http://nymote.org/ http://nymote.org/
- Amadou 13y ago
  All I get is a spinning blue dot. Your site is unfriendly to people who take their security seriously. That's not a good sign.
  - amirmc 13y ago
    Thanks for the feedback. I don't understand your second comment though, how is it 'unfriendly to people who take their security seriously'? You can email me instead, if you prefer.
    - pjc50 13y ago
      I'm guessing it doesn't work if you have javascript turned off, due to the unnecessary "splash screen". It does look like you're addressing the right problems with "Signpost" and "Irminsule". Am currently reading your slides.

jamesaguilar 13y ago

Risk of what?

smelliot 13y ago

You can also just SSH in and 'git pull' a driver if you prefer =)