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I would also assume that an over the air attack to silently suck data from the camera and microphone would be pretty easy for those with access to the RTOS (suc
by sillysaurus2 13y ago
I would also assume that an over the air attack to silently suck data from the camera and microphone would be pretty easy for those with access to the RTOS (such as governments)?
This is correct. The rule of thumb is this: If you need to avoid being tracked, do not under any circumstances carry a cell phone unless you have removed the battery. Even if it's powered off, it can still be activated to remotely track you as long as the battery is in it. This tactic was used in catching the recent serial killer Luka. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Magnotta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Magnotta
From the article: "His cell phone signal was traced to a hotel in Bagnolet, but he had left by the time police arrived.[55]"
You can bet that, since he was on the run, his cell phone was off.
There are other examples besides Luka. Circumstantial evidence is very strong that law enforcement can track you if you've powered off your phone but haven't removed the battery.
(I feel so strange posting this comment, since those who would benefit from this advice are probably of dubious character.)
EDIT: I edited my comment before Guvante's reply. But it looks like some people aren't really convinced. So here's another comment, from tlb 113 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6087399 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6087399
"There is reason to believe phones have been remotely hacked by law enforcement using carrier credentials to leave the cellular radio running and registering with the cell network even after the off button has been pushed and the phone appears to be off. Starting point for further reading: http://www.brighthub.com/electronics/gps/articles/51103.aspx http://www.brighthub.com/electronics/gps/articles/51103.aspx "
tlb = Trevor Blackwell, one of the best electronics hackers in the world. You may know him as the creator of the first robot that walks like a human. http://paulgraham.com/anybots.html http://paulgraham.com/anybots.html
Now I've presented circumstantial evidence and an appeal to authority, so of course feel free to doubt me. But don't be surprised to discover you've been tracked when carrying a powered-off cellphone with a battery in it.
- imissmyjuno 13y agoit is also an important piece of advice that could save someone's life for instance. there's nothing dubious about demanding privacy. now I just wish my nexus 4 had a removable battery..
- wffurr 13y agoThis makes non-removable batteries creepy in addition to annoying!
- MichaelGG 13y agoDoes removing the SIM prevent the common ways of tracing, or do they simply go off your IMEI?
- sillysaurus2 13y agoThe SIM isn't necessary to connect to a tower, meaning your GPS position will be reported unless you remove the battery.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoNot necessarily your GPS, using it consumes more power ( ~ 30 - 100mA @3.3V ) than detecting your location passively using the cell-towers. It also takes longer to get a precise fix unless the phone is out in the open.
- kamjam 13y agoIf you remove the SIM you are usually still able to make emergency calls (911, 999, 112), which means it can still connect to cell towers.
- dmdeller 13y agoNot a direct answer, but: by law, any cell phone can still place calls to 911 with the SIM removed. We can probably extrapolate from there.
- MichaelGG 13y agoRight, I was just wondering about the tracking methods used. Do they select by your handset identifier, or an identifier in the SIM? Would removing the SIM be at all helpful for avoiding tracking if you couldn't ditch a phone with an integrated battery?
- Guvante 13y ago> You can bet that, since he was on the run, his cell phone was off. You then follow this with > But if he was on the run, why was he carrying a cell phone? Answer: because he was stupid. Your postulation that this is sufficient proof to say that they can track you with your phone off is suspect.
- mikeash 13y agoThe baseband can control everything, and the baseband itself can be controlled remotely. It is at least technically feasible. There's no real room for doubt on that.
- hamiltonkibbe 13y ago>the baseband can control everything Why would that be the case? Baseband in this case refers to a frequency, eg taking data(audio, SMS, etc) and mod/demodulating it. It should take raw data at the bottom of the OSI model and prep it for the RF front end, and vice versa. I may absolutely be wrong, but it doesn't have any connection to the microphone other than receiving preprocessed digital audio from the application processor. Look at the interface for an e.g TI cc2500, that's the sort of device that's being discussed
- mikeash 13y ago"Baseband" in this case refers to a dedicated CPU and software that handles all of the high-level cellular radio protocol work. It's where the logic would be implemented to handle the data coming from a chip like the cc2500.
- CamperBob2 13y agoI was skeptical the last time this subject came up, too, but someone pointed out that for an attacker with root access, it would be easy enough to reprogram the phone's power button to act like it was turning the phone off without actually doing so. Given the fact that US law enforcement and security agencies are (now) indisputably known to be in the zero-day hacking business, the burden of proof is on those of us who've always claimed these stories were exaggerated. Personally, I no longer feel confident about calling bullshit on much of anything. With the US government's infinite budget and unaccountable influence over device manufacturers and telcos, no hack is impossible.
- wrongc0ntinent 13y agoThe addition of a mechanical power switch would probably make a successful product nowadays. Shouldn't be too hard to implement on individual phones if you have nimble fingers (not sure though, it's been ~decade since I last dissected one).
- jorgem 13y agoGood thing I never remove the battery when flying on an airplane.
- jonnathanson 13y ago"I feel so strange posting this comment, since those who would benefit from this advice are probably of dubious character" I don't think there's too much social harm done in pointing this out. It seems to be so well known that it's referenced (visually or even verbally) in movies and TV shows like Breaking Bad, where the criminals take the batteries out of their phones as an extra precaution against being tracked.
- adamb_ 13y agoHow does airplane mode fit in with this? Wasn't it until recently that FAA regulations required cellphones have an explicit means to halt ALL radio communication? If the phone's radio is still potentially active even when the device is "off", how could these baseband OS's get government certification?
- alandarev 13y agoThere is no confirmation whether baseband processor can be reached while device is OFF/in Airplane mod. And I join the crowd who think that is impossible. I bet someone would notice weird patterns if the baseband kept working despite of device off. (Speakers catching 2G, battery drain, interference with other devices, etc.)
- alexwright 13y agoThe radio interface could listen/wait without even replying, ie wouldn't make the GSM RFI speaker noise. If governments, carriers and law enforcement could all manage to use this so incredibly rarely that it's never been observed.. then it could be real. Given the types of people that would have to have access / knowledge of this though. For example people that suspect their partner of infidelity and is on the police liaison team of a carrier say... I agree it's very unlikely, someone would have noticed it by now.
- ubersoldat2k7 13y agoDon't feel bad about yourself. I had a history teacher on college who was a very important political criticize of Hugo Chavez government. Each time she was going to talk about politics, she took the battery of her cell phone.