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You need some serious balls to defend Pinochet and his criminal gang. "Immediately after the coup the junta moved to crush their left-wing opposition. In addit

You need some serious balls to defend Pinochet and his criminal gang. "Immediately after the coup the junta moved to crush their left-wing opposition. In addition to pursuing armed revolutionary groups it embarked on a campaign against opponents and perceived leftists in the country. As a result, according to the Rettig Commission, approximately 3,000 people are known to have been killed, 27,000[1] were incarcerated and in a great many cases tortured." [1] Reading "The Shock doctrine" by Naomi Klein opened my eyes. She would disagree with you on the "halfway-to-Cuba socialism": "As for the argument that Friedmanite policies are the reason Chileans live in "houses of brick" instead of "straw", it's clear that Stephens knows nothing of pre-coup Chile. The Chile of the 1960s had the best health and education systems on the continent, as well as a vibrant industrial sector and a rapidly expanding middle class." [2] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Junta_of_Chile_(1973) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Junta_of_Chile_(1973... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/mar/03/chile-earthquake http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/mar...

gaius 13y ago
Just out of personal curiosity, what do you think of Castro?
daniel-cussen 13y ago
That's not at the center of the argument here, it being economic, but sure, let's discuss it. How many people has Cuba, which was the model for Chilean socialism, imprisoned, and killed? It's far higher. While still nowhere like Stalinism, which in fairness to Allende it looked unlikely to become, Cuban socialism is pretty grim. I sometimes defend Pinochet, mostly economically. So do millions of other Chileans. I'd guess about half. Hell, I know people who had champagne ready for when the coup came about. Did people die? Yes. Lawfully? No. But Allende's government had already been declared illegal by the Chilean Supreme Court, and was rapidly turning into Cuban-style communism. Pinochet didn't make the stakes higher than they already were. And economically, which was what we were talking about, again, it was a case of taxing less and spending less that worked very well.
nhaehnle 13y ago
To be fair, people defend Hitler on economic policy. Richard Koo (who got famous for his comparisons of the financial crisis to lessons from Japan) said something along the lines of Germany under Hitler unfortunately being the only European country with a successful economic policy at the time. I'd have to dig a bit for the link to his speech though, it was a few years ago.
berntb 13y ago
If there is a good counter to this discussion of the Shock Doctrine, I'd be interested: http://www.cato.org/blog/johan-norberg-vs-naomi-klein-round-3 http://www.cato.org/blog/johan-norberg-vs-naomi-klein-round-... (Besides, 3000 dead and 27000 incarcerated and many of those tortured -- sounds like a left regime rounding error... :-) )
- berntb 13y ago
  I only got a down vote and no references to show why my reference is wrong? Despite that all the left idealists reading this very much wants to? :-) But it is wasted of course, no idealist changes his/her mind just because they learn that their empress is naked.
- papaf 13y ago
  Please do not joke about rounding errors. It is offensive: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/the-pinochet-affair-i-saw-them-herded-to-their-death-i-heard-the-gunfire-as-they-died-1179543.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/the-pinochet-affair-i-saw-... It was during the first three days they were held captive that Mr Schesch and his wife became aware of the lines of people being formed up and then led out of the stadium - almost certainly to concentration camps - or else inside, to face the firing squad.
  - berntb 13y ago
    Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I seriously think black humor is a good tool to give perspective -- the left around where I grew up pushed tens of millions of dead under the carpet. (E.g. the stories from volunteers that left for Soviet in the 30s were oppressed until well after 1989.) 3000 dead is, sadly, a rounding error for the ideology that gets five percent of the vote in my home country. Right now I'm in East Europe and shocked at the stories of how Soviet broke the back of any complaints -- just these are worse than Chile in most countries here... And mostly unknown. It might be different where you live. But I do agree with what you seem to imply -- one person is too many.

gaius 13y ago

Just out of personal curiosity, what do you think of Castro?

daniel-cussen 13y ago

That's not at the center of the argument here, it being economic, but sure, let's discuss it. How many people has Cuba, which was the model for Chilean socialism, imprisoned, and killed? It's far higher. While still nowhere like Stalinism, which in fairness to Allende it looked unlikely to become, Cuban socialism is pretty grim. I sometimes defend Pinochet, mostly economically. So do millions of other Chileans. I'd guess about half. Hell, I know people who had champagne ready for when the coup came about. Did people die? Yes. Lawfully? No. But Allende's government had already been declared illegal by the Chilean Supreme Court, and was rapidly turning into Cuban-style communism. Pinochet didn't make the stakes higher than they already were. And economically, which was what we were talking about, again, it was a case of taxing less and spending less that worked very well.

nhaehnle 13y ago

To be fair, people defend Hitler on economic policy. Richard Koo (who got famous for his comparisons of the financial crisis to lessons from Japan) said something along the lines of Germany under Hitler unfortunately being the only European country with a successful economic policy at the time. I'd have to dig a bit for the link to his speech though, it was a few years ago.

berntb 13y ago

If there is a good counter to this discussion of the Shock Doctrine, I'd be interested: http://www.cato.org/blog/johan-norberg-vs-naomi-klein-round-3 http://www.cato.org/blog/johan-norberg-vs-naomi-klein-round-... (Besides, 3000 dead and 27000 incarcerated and many of those tortured -- sounds like a left regime rounding error... :-) )

berntb 13y ago
I only got a down vote and no references to show why my reference is wrong? Despite that all the left idealists reading this very much wants to? :-) But it is wasted of course, no idealist changes his/her mind just because they learn that their empress is naked.
papaf 13y ago
Please do not joke about rounding errors. It is offensive: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/the-pinochet-affair-i-saw-them-herded-to-their-death-i-heard-the-gunfire-as-they-died-1179543.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/the-pinochet-affair-i-saw-... It was during the first three days they were held captive that Mr Schesch and his wife became aware of the lines of people being formed up and then led out of the stadium - almost certainly to concentration camps - or else inside, to face the firing squad.
- berntb 13y ago
  Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I seriously think black humor is a good tool to give perspective -- the left around where I grew up pushed tens of millions of dead under the carpet. (E.g. the stories from volunteers that left for Soviet in the 30s were oppressed until well after 1989.) 3000 dead is, sadly, a rounding error for the ideology that gets five percent of the vote in my home country. Right now I'm in East Europe and shocked at the stories of how Soviet broke the back of any complaints -- just these are worse than Chile in most countries here... And mostly unknown. It might be different where you live. But I do agree with what you seem to imply -- one person is too many.