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Please, if those countries really wanted to keep their identities, their inhabitants wouldn't consume so much US music, movies, style and products (iphones, any

by kfk 13y ago

Please, if those countries really wanted to keep their identities, their inhabitants wouldn't consume so much US music, movies, style and products (iphones, anybody?). People are already buying into the "just a province of Europe (I'd say, just a province of US)" with their wallets. I don't see how forcing a local language is helping in counteracting the "provincialization" trend. Finally, in my ramblings around Europe, especially north and central Europe, I noticed that people really love to keep a "fake" identity. They would wear weird dresses (the Germans), eat weird stuff (the Danish), have a weird Santa Claus (the Belgian, pardon, Flemish), just to think they are "different". They are not different, most of the EU countries are very, very, similar to each other. I really wish we realized that and stopped this craziness about "losing our culture", we already lost our culture, because that was the good/optimal thing to do, please let's get over it.

Brakenshire 13y ago
You should try asking the people around you whether they wish to give up their language and culture to become an undifferentiated province. Even in the internationalized circles in which expats move you will find almost no-one (who is not an expat) who agrees with the proposition. It may well be that many people make many small decisions which tend towards that outcome, but that is what democratic, civic decision making processes are for. You might as well say that people vote with their wallets to build on the countryside. And you only have to look at the way in which the political systems operate in different European countries to see the massive cultural differences which exist. How do you think the Danish would react to a politician like Berlusconi?
- kfk 13y ago
  Interesting discussion, a pity HN is not made for long conversations. Political system are a complicated beast. We all watch the same movies, buy the same stuff, but, somehow, vote in completely different ways. I think it's because of how incentives are set in the respective countries. They are not really culture, but just something that's there and it is very difficult to remove. For example, the Italian systems protects pharmacies (you can have only 1 each xyz inhabitants). But the Danish system protects its economy taxing cars 180%. The principle behind those 2 policies is the same (the State can and has to affect the economy), yet the incentive this creates and the impacts on the economy are very different.
  - Brakenshire 13y ago
    > Political system are a complicated beast. We all watch the same movies, buy the same stuff, but, somehow, vote in completely different ways. I think it's because of how incentives are set in the respective countries. They are not really culture, but just something that's there and it is very difficult to remove. I take your point, although arguably institutional memory is an important part of culture, especially given the cultural norms which build up intertwined with those organizations. Even beyond institutions, though, I'd say there are still very significant differences. My understanding is that Berlusconi does well partly because people admire his lad-ish lifestyle (fast cars, 18 year old supermodels, etc). Whereas in many other countries his attitude, and level of consumption would be considered vulgar. Berlusconi doesn't just get in because of the electoral system, a lot of people in Italy must like him. And elsewhere in Europe he is simply not liked. Obviously, that's just one example. I don't mean to pick out Italy in particular.
    - kfk 13y ago
      As I am Italian (who never voted Berlusconi), let me say that Berlusconi is not about the ladies and the fast cars, but a lot about a weak, very weak, alternative (a very shitty left wing). Italy is a conservative, right wing, country and Berlusconi was the only leader in that area for 20 years. How this happened and why will take too long to explain. Yes, you have a point that Berlusconi is a sort of cultural difference. But to be sure of that, we shall put Danes in Italy for 10 years and see what they vote after that period. Yes, institutional memory is a cultural "feature", but for me "culture" is more the day to day of people, what do they laugh at? What are they aspirations? Dreams? What do they buy? Do they travel? Do they like sunny beaches (ie: Chinese don't like sunny beaches, here you have a cultural difference...)? Etc. In this, in EU we are very, very, similar.
- mjn 13y ago
  My guess is that's the majority view, though of the Danes I know (mostly younger and internationally oriented), they tend not to put as much emphasis on the language specifically, and more on culture. When there was some discussion over mandatory Danish lessons for employees at my university, a few people half-jokingly suggested that if the goal is to integrate foreigners into Denmark, then it would make more sense to start with mandatory bicycle lessons, since this is one of the bigger integration failures. Then move on to explaining the rules for building smørrebrød, an introduction to drinking beer from a can while sitting on the side of a canal, etc... and language only much further down the list of integration nice-to-haves. (From a practical perspective, I do think bicycling is more important to integration into local culture, at least in Copenhagen, than language! But parts of Copenhagen are already de-facto English-speaking, especially trendy nightlife areas like Vesterbro... perhaps not as much as Berlin, but getting there.)

by kfk 13y ago

Brakenshire 13y ago

You should try asking the people around you whether they wish to give up their language and culture to become an undifferentiated province. Even in the internationalized circles in which expats move you will find almost no-one (who is not an expat) who agrees with the proposition. It may well be that many people make many small decisions which tend towards that outcome, but that is what democratic, civic decision making processes are for. You might as well say that people vote with their wallets to build on the countryside. And you only have to look at the way in which the political systems operate in different European countries to see the massive cultural differences which exist. How do you think the Danish would react to a politician like Berlusconi?

kfk 13y ago
Interesting discussion, a pity HN is not made for long conversations. Political system are a complicated beast. We all watch the same movies, buy the same stuff, but, somehow, vote in completely different ways. I think it's because of how incentives are set in the respective countries. They are not really culture, but just something that's there and it is very difficult to remove. For example, the Italian systems protects pharmacies (you can have only 1 each xyz inhabitants). But the Danish system protects its economy taxing cars 180%. The principle behind those 2 policies is the same (the State can and has to affect the economy), yet the incentive this creates and the impacts on the economy are very different.
- Brakenshire 13y ago
  > Political system are a complicated beast. We all watch the same movies, buy the same stuff, but, somehow, vote in completely different ways. I think it's because of how incentives are set in the respective countries. They are not really culture, but just something that's there and it is very difficult to remove. I take your point, although arguably institutional memory is an important part of culture, especially given the cultural norms which build up intertwined with those organizations. Even beyond institutions, though, I'd say there are still very significant differences. My understanding is that Berlusconi does well partly because people admire his lad-ish lifestyle (fast cars, 18 year old supermodels, etc). Whereas in many other countries his attitude, and level of consumption would be considered vulgar. Berlusconi doesn't just get in because of the electoral system, a lot of people in Italy must like him. And elsewhere in Europe he is simply not liked. Obviously, that's just one example. I don't mean to pick out Italy in particular.
  - kfk 13y ago
    As I am Italian (who never voted Berlusconi), let me say that Berlusconi is not about the ladies and the fast cars, but a lot about a weak, very weak, alternative (a very shitty left wing). Italy is a conservative, right wing, country and Berlusconi was the only leader in that area for 20 years. How this happened and why will take too long to explain. Yes, you have a point that Berlusconi is a sort of cultural difference. But to be sure of that, we shall put Danes in Italy for 10 years and see what they vote after that period. Yes, institutional memory is a cultural "feature", but for me "culture" is more the day to day of people, what do they laugh at? What are they aspirations? Dreams? What do they buy? Do they travel? Do they like sunny beaches (ie: Chinese don't like sunny beaches, here you have a cultural difference...)? Etc. In this, in EU we are very, very, similar.
mjn 13y ago
My guess is that's the majority view, though of the Danes I know (mostly younger and internationally oriented), they tend not to put as much emphasis on the language specifically, and more on culture. When there was some discussion over mandatory Danish lessons for employees at my university, a few people half-jokingly suggested that if the goal is to integrate foreigners into Denmark, then it would make more sense to start with mandatory bicycle lessons, since this is one of the bigger integration failures. Then move on to explaining the rules for building smørrebrød, an introduction to drinking beer from a can while sitting on the side of a canal, etc... and language only much further down the list of integration nice-to-haves. (From a practical perspective, I do think bicycling is more important to integration into local culture, at least in Copenhagen, than language! But parts of Copenhagen are already de-facto English-speaking, especially trendy nightlife areas like Vesterbro... perhaps not as much as Berlin, but getting there.)