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> The whole situation creates "sticky" jobs, where people end up stuck in 1 country, sometimes a very small country, and they can't really embrace the full powe

> The whole situation creates "sticky" jobs, where people end up stuck in 1 country, sometimes a very small country, and they can't really embrace the full power of a unionized economic area. I understand your frustration, but the purpose of the policy is precisely to create 'sticky jobs', and this is really the only way things can work unless countries like Denmark and the Netherlands wish over time to lose their languages, and become more or less undifferentiated provinces of Europe. Labour market mobility is important, but it is not the sine qua non of modern Europe. Small countries accept immigration on the basis that the immigrants will over time learn the language and adjust to the culture, it's impossible for them to maintain the integrity of their state if a major percentage of the population are transitory.

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kfk 13y ago
Please, if those countries really wanted to keep their identities, their inhabitants wouldn't consume so much US music, movies, style and products (iphones, anybody?). People are already buying into the "just a province of Europe (I'd say, just a province of US)" with their wallets. I don't see how forcing a local language is helping in counteracting the "provincialization" trend. Finally, in my ramblings around Europe, especially north and central Europe, I noticed that people really love to keep a "fake" identity. They would wear weird dresses (the Germans), eat weird stuff (the Danish), have a weird Santa Claus (the Belgian, pardon, Flemish), just to think they are "different". They are not different, most of the EU countries are very, very, similar to each other. I really wish we realized that and stopped this craziness about "losing our culture", we already lost our culture, because that was the good/optimal thing to do, please let's get over it.
- Brakenshire 13y ago
  You should try asking the people around you whether they wish to give up their language and culture to become an undifferentiated province. Even in the internationalized circles in which expats move you will find almost no-one (who is not an expat) who agrees with the proposition. It may well be that many people make many small decisions which tend towards that outcome, but that is what democratic, civic decision making processes are for. You might as well say that people vote with their wallets to build on the countryside. And you only have to look at the way in which the political systems operate in different European countries to see the massive cultural differences which exist. How do you think the Danish would react to a politician like Berlusconi?
  - kfk 13y ago
    Interesting discussion, a pity HN is not made for long conversations. Political system are a complicated beast. We all watch the same movies, buy the same stuff, but, somehow, vote in completely different ways. I think it's because of how incentives are set in the respective countries. They are not really culture, but just something that's there and it is very difficult to remove. For example, the Italian systems protects pharmacies (you can have only 1 each xyz inhabitants). But the Danish system protects its economy taxing cars 180%. The principle behind those 2 policies is the same (the State can and has to affect the economy), yet the incentive this creates and the impacts on the economy are very different.
    - Brakenshire 13y ago
      > Political system are a complicated beast. We all watch the same movies, buy the same stuff, but, somehow, vote in completely different ways. I think it's because of how incentives are set in the respective countries. They are not really culture, but just something that's there and it is very difficult to remove. I take your point, although arguably institutional memory is an important part of culture, especially given the cultural norms which build up intertwined with those organizations. Even beyond institutions, though, I'd say there are still very significant differences. My understanding is that Berlusconi does well partly because people admire his lad-ish lifestyle (fast cars, 18 year old supermodels, etc). Whereas in many other countries his attitude, and level of consumption would be considered vulgar. Berlusconi doesn't just get in because of the electoral system, a lot of people in Italy must like him. And elsewhere in Europe he is simply not liked. Obviously, that's just one example. I don't mean to pick out Italy in particular.

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kfk 13y ago

Please, if those countries really wanted to keep their identities, their inhabitants wouldn't consume so much US music, movies, style and products (iphones, anybody?). People are already buying into the "just a province of Europe (I'd say, just a province of US)" with their wallets. I don't see how forcing a local language is helping in counteracting the "provincialization" trend. Finally, in my ramblings around Europe, especially north and central Europe, I noticed that people really love to keep a "fake" identity. They would wear weird dresses (the Germans), eat weird stuff (the Danish), have a weird Santa Claus (the Belgian, pardon, Flemish), just to think they are "different". They are not different, most of the EU countries are very, very, similar to each other. I really wish we realized that and stopped this craziness about "losing our culture", we already lost our culture, because that was the good/optimal thing to do, please let's get over it.

Brakenshire 13y ago
You should try asking the people around you whether they wish to give up their language and culture to become an undifferentiated province. Even in the internationalized circles in which expats move you will find almost no-one (who is not an expat) who agrees with the proposition. It may well be that many people make many small decisions which tend towards that outcome, but that is what democratic, civic decision making processes are for. You might as well say that people vote with their wallets to build on the countryside. And you only have to look at the way in which the political systems operate in different European countries to see the massive cultural differences which exist. How do you think the Danish would react to a politician like Berlusconi?
- kfk 13y ago
  Interesting discussion, a pity HN is not made for long conversations. Political system are a complicated beast. We all watch the same movies, buy the same stuff, but, somehow, vote in completely different ways. I think it's because of how incentives are set in the respective countries. They are not really culture, but just something that's there and it is very difficult to remove. For example, the Italian systems protects pharmacies (you can have only 1 each xyz inhabitants). But the Danish system protects its economy taxing cars 180%. The principle behind those 2 policies is the same (the State can and has to affect the economy), yet the incentive this creates and the impacts on the economy are very different.
  - Brakenshire 13y ago
    > Political system are a complicated beast. We all watch the same movies, buy the same stuff, but, somehow, vote in completely different ways. I think it's because of how incentives are set in the respective countries. They are not really culture, but just something that's there and it is very difficult to remove. I take your point, although arguably institutional memory is an important part of culture, especially given the cultural norms which build up intertwined with those organizations. Even beyond institutions, though, I'd say there are still very significant differences. My understanding is that Berlusconi does well partly because people admire his lad-ish lifestyle (fast cars, 18 year old supermodels, etc). Whereas in many other countries his attitude, and level of consumption would be considered vulgar. Berlusconi doesn't just get in because of the electoral system, a lot of people in Italy must like him. And elsewhere in Europe he is simply not liked. Obviously, that's just one example. I don't mean to pick out Italy in particular.