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Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as

Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. 2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. However, "body image distress" is real and it even drives people to suicide [1]. Violence against transgender people is very common as well. Homosexuality used to be listed as mental disorders in DSM I and II, but was removed in 1974. "Gender identity disorder" was finally removed in DSM V last year [2]. In august, a 21 year-old transgendered woman was beaten to death in New York, to just mention one of the many victims of hate crimes against these people [3]. Or maybe it's just a funny thing. Maybe he's proud to dress as a woman? I can't tell. What's interesting is that we in this community consisting mostly of straight, white men feel that we have the interpretative prerogative when it comes to these kinds of things ("'Am I being hypersensitive?' Yes, you are."). Why is it so hard to try to understand someone when they feel offended, instead of telling them they are being hypersensitive? Disclaimer: I'm comparing misogyny to racism and transphobia to homophobia. Apples and oranges. This is a bit offensive, too. My intention is not to say that they are the same, but to try to draw parallels between attitudes that most people find wrong, and attitudes that are generally accepted. Why is it okay to make fun of asians? 1. http://www.lauras-playground.com/transgender_suicide_report.htm http://www.lauras-playground.com/transgender_suicide_report.... 2. http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/03/1271431/apa-revises-manual-being-transgender-is-no-longer-a-mental-disorder/ http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/03/1271431/apa-revises... 3. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/23/nyc-transgender-assault-_n_3806092.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/23/nyc-transgender-ass...

andrelaszlo 13y ago
-1, ouch. I was just trying to contribute to the discussion. Maybe I've gotten HN completely wrong. Sorry for any spelling/grammar errors btw, English is not my first language.
JoeAltmaier 13y ago
Its cool to be sensitive to the feelings of others. But its not actually required, not even in a civilized society. When writing "straight white men feel that we have the interpretative prerogative..." keep in mind that every free-thinking person actually does have that right. If others disagree, fine. Acting as the PC Police doesn't make you a better person; it makes you silly and anti-intellectual.
- andrelaszlo 13y ago
  Now you're just being oversensitive :) Granted, the "interpretative prerogative" line was obviously flamebait...
- timje1 13y ago
  As a community with a vastly skewed gender divide (both HN and tech in general), I think it's our responsibility to try to be sensitive (even over-sensitive) to the needs of those that are underrepresented. I'm just talking about the male / female divide - I've no idea what the level of representation of the LBGT+ community is on HN, but it's probably not very high.
  - Shivetya 13y ago
    apparently it is only straight white men who must follow this rule. The overly sensitive crowd doesn't usually bat an eye when a member of one of the protected groups slights another, unless of course differences in levels of protection are significant. As in, get over it. People will find ways to take offense at anything. Most people realize where their effort is better used.
  - edgarallenbro 13y ago
    As a trans person with several other trans and lesbian/gay friends, I can assure you everyone here is being insanely oversensitive. It's as if everyone here understands that they're supposed to be supportive of the LGBT community, but don't actually know anyone in it themselves and so completely misfire with their attempts at being PC
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brianmcdonough 13y ago
Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up? Your post demonstrates that you have no firm opinion on the matter and that you are "covering all the bases" as opposed to saying something meaningful based on your personal experience. I lived with someone who tried to commit suicide and suffered from deep depression. Laughter was the one thing that helped. It's pretty clear that RB is having a laugh and inviting others to join in at his own expense and not at the expense of any of the examples you give. We must rigorously defend humor from the humorless, less they try to make sense of complex humor as in "What does it mean?" or "I don't get it therefore I must try to sound intelligent in the wake of my ignorance."
- JonnieCache 13y ago
  Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up? Now that is offensive. He even provided a linked reference FFS. Being alienated from your own physical body is not "playing dress up." Transgender people don't put on the clothes of the other gender for fun. You're thinking of transvestites, who are (sort of) doing it for kicks. Very different thing.
  - currymesurprise 13y ago
    I believe you have misunderstood your parent comment. The question "Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up?" asks whether suicide can be caused by Richard Branson playing dress up. The question does not appear to confuse "transgender" and "transvestite", nor does it use "playing dress up" to refer to either.
- andrelaszlo 13y ago
  >> Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up? That's not what I wrote at all.^ I even provided a link for you. I didn't state my opinion, as it's not very interesting (I really don't care about how RB dresses). What I tried to do was to try to answer the people that asked why anyone would be offended by this ("This bet was attacked by feminists (rightly? or too sensitive?)"). I'm not offended, personally, so I tried to take a look at it from a birds-eye view to get the discussion going. So far it's quite disappointing. I'm not sure if people are actively trying to misunderstand me or if I'm just not expressing myself very well. (Is there a name for this?) The general consensus seems to be that I'm a humorless, anti-intellectual, silly PC police that should just get over myself^^. Which I actually find quite funny. :D Lastly, I wonder why this make people so emotional. I wanted to avoid labeling anyone as "sexist" or things like that. I don't think RB had these intentions, and he's probably a great guy... ^ This is misrepresenting what I wrote to the point where it just sounds absurd. A kind of straw man fallacy, I think. I am actually surprised to see this kind of argumentation techniques used at HN. ^^ Ad hominem, anyone? Sure, I might be any/all of these things... but it doesn't prove your point.
frogpelt 13y ago
Great idea!! Let's think of all the reasons it could hurt someone's feelings. But here's an interesting fact about being offended: it's a choice, just like most emotional responses. You can choose not to be offended. That doesn't mean you always should choose that path but most of the time it is the better choice. If someone cuts you off in traffic on the way to work, you can A) be mad at the person, try to retaliate, and go to work in a bad mood or you can B) forget about it and not waste your emotional energy on a bad driver you will probably never meet. Choosing to be or not be offended is similar.
- cbp 13y ago
  Damn, where did you get that conclusion from? A list of "Top 10 things you need to know about psychology"?
- drhayes9 13y ago
  Choosing to not be offended is a prerogative of the privileged. You might get to choose not to be offended but that's likely because you're not the target here. Consider two things: 1. You're saying that someone doesn't have to be offended when that person's entire identity is being lampooned. Sure, I don't have to be offended if someone makes lazy Mexican jokes... but that doesn't mean that their behavior isn't reprehensible, not funny, and contributes to a culture of hatred and violence. 2. Considering that a culture that treats cross-dressing and transgendered people as "humorous" leads pretty quickly to making those people targets of scorn and violence leaves some of the choice out of it, don't you think? A transgendered person might "choose" not to be offended, but then a potential attacker might "choose" to think of someone as less of a person... and images and words like this contribute to that. It sure seems like you're comparing a culture of derision and violence against transgendered people to getting cut off in traffic.
- SheepSlapper 13y ago
  I agree, choosing to not be offended is almost never the easier choice, but is usually the better way to go.
- cmyr 13y ago
  Those things aren't similar at all. An individual's specific, isolated behaviour is distinct from an individual's general, systematic behaviour. Somebody cutting me off in traffic (because they're stressed, or late, or sad, or angry, or for whatever other reason) is massively different from somebody cutting me off in traffic because I'm transgender, E.g. I accept that this is an awful particular example, but I'm working with the framework you've offered, and I trust it gets the point across.
bmelton 13y ago
Being offended is, I believe, a choice that people make, and I think people should choose to be offended less, not more.
girvo 13y ago
I truly never thought dressing in drag could be offensive.
ultramundane828 13y ago
I don't see this as inflammatory or offensive. However, I do have a separate problem. It reads like a rebuttal, but has no parent comment. It makes me feel like you're speaking to a comment no one made. Derail complete.
- andrelaszlo 13y ago
  It was several comments, that's why. Maybe I should have chosen one of them? Didn't think it would be confusing, sorry. Edit: Reading timje's edit, I think I should have chosen that comment as parent.
- teh_klev 13y ago
  I agree, I don't often feel I need to stick my oar in with type of thing, but I wish I had enough karma to down vote this from being the top comment. It is a first class derailment. I really don't see what the parent can take as offensive. Men have been dressing up as over-exaggerated caricatures of women for years (going back to Shakespeare and beyond), it's called pantomime. Women do the same and men don't get upset. Maybe it's a UK thing that doesn't translate well to other cultures. This is being "offended" for the sake of being offended.
brickmort 13y ago
In my honest (and probably unpopular) opinion, There's a limit where this 'offended' thing starts getting ridiculous, and, to me, this is where it is. You really can't please everybody, and if you do try to please everybody, the only thing you'll end up being able to do is stand there and/or walk. Even then, you'll eventually offend somebody for standing and walking. The best thing to do is take this for what it is; a light-hearted joke. and move on. It's not worth the debates and arguments that come with it. there are bigger problems to worry about than a guy dressed in women's clothing.
sergiosgc 13y ago
Humour has no barriers. And it shouldn't have. We joke about death. We joke about illness. We joke about disabilities. We joke about just everything. Laughter and humour is what separates us from monkeys. Let the monkeys be politically correct. We'll have a good laugh in the meantime. The fact that you feel offended is the itself the result of misogyny. If the world were misogyny-free, there would be no offense implied. It is not, but we should fake until we make it.
- cmyr 13y ago
  The 'humour has no barriers' thing is dependent on that humour working. This just seems tone-deaf.
  - sergiosgc 13y ago
    For any kind of humour,it won't ressonate with a segment of the population. This does not invalidate the argument.
fruzz 13y ago
Thank you. It's 'funny' because a man wearing makeup and a skirt is something you're supposed to find ridiculous. Meanwhile, a woman wearing masculine attire isn't funny. I'm a trans woman. People I've never met before make it their business to come up to me in public and make dehumanizing statements. Or threaten my life. My friends have been beaten up for not satisfying gender roles. I lost one friend to suicide, and my lover was hospitalized after his attempt. All because this society is so fixated on making their lives unlivable because of their gender presentation. This 404 page is part of the culture that feeds into this. The double standard between women dressing masculine, and men dressing feminine, speaks to a greater underlying prejudice.
- peterwwillis 13y ago
  > This 404 page is part of the culture that feeds into this. The 404 page is a picture of a guy with makeup on and wearing a dress. This could be a picture of a transwoman, or a gay man in drag; would it still be feeding into a culture of transphobia? How could you tell without knowing the context of the picture? If you know Richard Branson, you know he is a straight cisman. So him dressing in drag becomes confusing. Why could he be doing this? Is it wrong for him to dress in drag for any reason at all? Are there some acceptable reasons why a straight cisman can dress in drag? If so, what are those reasons, and who gets to decide? You might say that people who would get offended by him would be the ones to make this decision. For example, black people get to decide that white people can't say the N word and that they can't dress in blackface, because it's offensive to them. And we all accept that. -- But why would someone dress up in blackface, or say the N word? Would it be to make fun of black people? Perhaps someone wants to appropriate a culture different than theirs, or re-enact some historical figure. Or perhaps they're just racist. And why would a straight cisman dress up as a woman? Is it to make some point about gender inequality, or to show solidarity with transwomen, or to re-enact some popular historical figure/singer? Maybe they found it thrilling to challenge their own and others' expectations of their own gender expression? Or are they just sexist/misogynist or transphobic? -- You have experienced discrimination because people don't like who you are. It's not your gender presentation they hate, because these men (i'm betting it's all men) like females that present female. What they hate is the confusing and uncomfortable feeling of something they can't understand. It challenges their idea of what a woman is. They are attracted to ciswomen, and everything in their head tells them they should never be attracted to males. So when a male dresses as a woman, it creates a conflict they can't resolve. So they lash out in order to resolve their internal conflict; it proves to themselves that they don't actually find a male attractive. This is of course part of the basis for transphobia/cissexism. And so what should we do to fix this? Should we make solid lines where cisfolk can not deviate from their expected gender norms, and transfolk can not deviate from their expected norms, and force everyone to accept people in only their preferred gender presentation? Should we prevent anyone from ridiculing anyone else, or perhaps just prevent the majority from ridiculing the minority? What's fair, and what's acceptable, and who gets to decide? -- Perhaps there's a better way. Perhaps we can educate people to understand their fellow human being. Perhaps we can educate people to understand themselves. And where does this education happen? In the schools? At work? In the streets? At home? Really, we need it all. We all need to help each other learn. We need to help people understand that how someone dresses or who they like doesn't affect anyone but them; that they're doing no harm, and should be allowed to live their lives however they want, regardless of what you think of it or them. The gay community is really starting to get there now that gay marriage is becoming more popular. Hopefully in my generation, politicians will no longer be ashamed to be gay, and will come out and proudly support their country as gay elected representatives. And then hopefully transpeople, queer, neutrois, etc will do the same. It's a long, difficult, uphill slog through our cultural and emotional baggage until we get there. I don't think shaming someone for dressing in drag is going to push us up that hill. But continuing to tell your story, and continuing to educate people, will inch us closer. I say we should all become more educated, and educate each other, and be compassionate and empathetic even to those that would rather hate than appreciate. Because I think the only thing that's going to create positive change is positive action. -- Thank you for being yourself, and being courageous, and getting through our shitshow of a culture. Thank you for making a small difference towards helping other people like yourself - one day - no longer be victims of this kind of abuse.
phaus 13y ago
>Why is it so hard to try to understand someone when they feel offended, instead of telling them they are being hypersensitive? It might be hard for you to imagine, but some people are, in fact, hypersensitive. Some people make a hobby out of finding things offensive; society should generally laugh at these people and ignore them. That being said, there are also plenty of situations where someone can be legitimately offended by something. >1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. This is just plain silly. Textbook hypersensitivity. Anyone who would be offended for this reason is an idiot. >2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. However, "body image distress" is real and it even drives people to suicide [1]. Violence against transgender people is very common as well. Homosexuality used to be listed as mental disorders in DSM I and II, but was removed in 1974. "Gender identity disorder" was finally removed in DSM V last year [2]. In august, a 21 year-old transgendered woman was beaten to death in New York, to just mention one of the many victims of hate crimes against these people. This one, on the other hand, makes a little more sense. That being said, people still shouldn't care when other people make fun of the things they like doing in a generalized way.
teh_klev 13y ago
> 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Bollocks, I know more male cabin crew than I do women cabin crew. You're the one typecasting flight attendants as being women. In fact many most of the recent flights in the UK I've flown on have an equal number of male/female cabin crew and...shock horror....cockpit crew. This being top post on HN is truly fucking shameful. A bunch of made up offence about a CEO who painted his face when he lost a bet. Please, go get a life and a sense of humour. >Disclaimer: I'm comparing misogyny to racism and transphobia to homophobia. Apples and oranges. This is a bit offensive, too. My intention is not to say that they are the same, but to try to draw parallels between attitudes that most people find wrong, and attitudes that are generally accepted. Why is it okay to make fun of asians? Who is making fun of asians? Where the fuck did that come from? Sorry my friend, you are way off the pathway with these assumptions and veiled accusations. It's a joke. Get a fucking sense of humour. ps: ever heard of pantomime? Women dress as men, men dress as women.

andrelaszlo 13y ago

-1, ouch. I was just trying to contribute to the discussion. Maybe I've gotten HN completely wrong. Sorry for any spelling/grammar errors btw, English is not my first language.

JoeAltmaier 13y ago

Its cool to be sensitive to the feelings of others. But its not actually required, not even in a civilized society. When writing "straight white men feel that we have the interpretative prerogative..." keep in mind that every free-thinking person actually does have that right. If others disagree, fine. Acting as the PC Police doesn't make you a better person; it makes you silly and anti-intellectual.

andrelaszlo 13y ago
Now you're just being oversensitive :) Granted, the "interpretative prerogative" line was obviously flamebait...
timje1 13y ago
As a community with a vastly skewed gender divide (both HN and tech in general), I think it's our responsibility to try to be sensitive (even over-sensitive) to the needs of those that are underrepresented. I'm just talking about the male / female divide - I've no idea what the level of representation of the LBGT+ community is on HN, but it's probably not very high.
- Shivetya 13y ago
  apparently it is only straight white men who must follow this rule. The overly sensitive crowd doesn't usually bat an eye when a member of one of the protected groups slights another, unless of course differences in levels of protection are significant. As in, get over it. People will find ways to take offense at anything. Most people realize where their effort is better used.
- edgarallenbro 13y ago
  As a trans person with several other trans and lesbian/gay friends, I can assure you everyone here is being insanely oversensitive. It's as if everyone here understands that they're supposed to be supportive of the LGBT community, but don't actually know anyone in it themselves and so completely misfire with their attempts at being PC

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brianmcdonough 13y ago

Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up? Your post demonstrates that you have no firm opinion on the matter and that you are "covering all the bases" as opposed to saying something meaningful based on your personal experience. I lived with someone who tried to commit suicide and suffered from deep depression. Laughter was the one thing that helped. It's pretty clear that RB is having a laugh and inviting others to join in at his own expense and not at the expense of any of the examples you give. We must rigorously defend humor from the humorless, less they try to make sense of complex humor as in "What does it mean?" or "I don't get it therefore I must try to sound intelligent in the wake of my ignorance."

JonnieCache 13y ago
Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up? Now that is offensive. He even provided a linked reference FFS. Being alienated from your own physical body is not "playing dress up." Transgender people don't put on the clothes of the other gender for fun. You're thinking of transvestites, who are (sort of) doing it for kicks. Very different thing.
- currymesurprise 13y ago
  I believe you have misunderstood your parent comment. The question "Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up?" asks whether suicide can be caused by Richard Branson playing dress up. The question does not appear to confuse "transgender" and "transvestite", nor does it use "playing dress up" to refer to either.
andrelaszlo 13y ago
>> Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up? That's not what I wrote at all.^ I even provided a link for you. I didn't state my opinion, as it's not very interesting (I really don't care about how RB dresses). What I tried to do was to try to answer the people that asked why anyone would be offended by this ("This bet was attacked by feminists (rightly? or too sensitive?)"). I'm not offended, personally, so I tried to take a look at it from a birds-eye view to get the discussion going. So far it's quite disappointing. I'm not sure if people are actively trying to misunderstand me or if I'm just not expressing myself very well. (Is there a name for this?) The general consensus seems to be that I'm a humorless, anti-intellectual, silly PC police that should just get over myself^^. Which I actually find quite funny. :D Lastly, I wonder why this make people so emotional. I wanted to avoid labeling anyone as "sexist" or things like that. I don't think RB had these intentions, and he's probably a great guy... ^ This is misrepresenting what I wrote to the point where it just sounds absurd. A kind of straw man fallacy, I think. I am actually surprised to see this kind of argumentation techniques used at HN. ^^ Ad hominem, anyone? Sure, I might be any/all of these things... but it doesn't prove your point.

frogpelt 13y ago

Great idea!! Let's think of all the reasons it could hurt someone's feelings. But here's an interesting fact about being offended: it's a choice, just like most emotional responses. You can choose not to be offended. That doesn't mean you always should choose that path but most of the time it is the better choice. If someone cuts you off in traffic on the way to work, you can A) be mad at the person, try to retaliate, and go to work in a bad mood or you can B) forget about it and not waste your emotional energy on a bad driver you will probably never meet. Choosing to be or not be offended is similar.

cbp 13y ago
Damn, where did you get that conclusion from? A list of "Top 10 things you need to know about psychology"?
drhayes9 13y ago
Choosing to not be offended is a prerogative of the privileged. You might get to choose not to be offended but that's likely because you're not the target here. Consider two things: 1. You're saying that someone doesn't have to be offended when that person's entire identity is being lampooned. Sure, I don't have to be offended if someone makes lazy Mexican jokes... but that doesn't mean that their behavior isn't reprehensible, not funny, and contributes to a culture of hatred and violence. 2. Considering that a culture that treats cross-dressing and transgendered people as "humorous" leads pretty quickly to making those people targets of scorn and violence leaves some of the choice out of it, don't you think? A transgendered person might "choose" not to be offended, but then a potential attacker might "choose" to think of someone as less of a person... and images and words like this contribute to that. It sure seems like you're comparing a culture of derision and violence against transgendered people to getting cut off in traffic.
SheepSlapper 13y ago
I agree, choosing to not be offended is almost never the easier choice, but is usually the better way to go.
cmyr 13y ago
Those things aren't similar at all. An individual's specific, isolated behaviour is distinct from an individual's general, systematic behaviour. Somebody cutting me off in traffic (because they're stressed, or late, or sad, or angry, or for whatever other reason) is massively different from somebody cutting me off in traffic because I'm transgender, E.g. I accept that this is an awful particular example, but I'm working with the framework you've offered, and I trust it gets the point across.

bmelton 13y ago

Being offended is, I believe, a choice that people make, and I think people should choose to be offended less, not more.

girvo 13y ago

I truly never thought dressing in drag could be offensive.

ultramundane828 13y ago

I don't see this as inflammatory or offensive. However, I do have a separate problem. It reads like a rebuttal, but has no parent comment. It makes me feel like you're speaking to a comment no one made. Derail complete.

andrelaszlo 13y ago
It was several comments, that's why. Maybe I should have chosen one of them? Didn't think it would be confusing, sorry. Edit: Reading timje's edit, I think I should have chosen that comment as parent.
teh_klev 13y ago
I agree, I don't often feel I need to stick my oar in with type of thing, but I wish I had enough karma to down vote this from being the top comment. It is a first class derailment. I really don't see what the parent can take as offensive. Men have been dressing up as over-exaggerated caricatures of women for years (going back to Shakespeare and beyond), it's called pantomime. Women do the same and men don't get upset. Maybe it's a UK thing that doesn't translate well to other cultures. This is being "offended" for the sake of being offended.

brickmort 13y ago

In my honest (and probably unpopular) opinion, There's a limit where this 'offended' thing starts getting ridiculous, and, to me, this is where it is. You really can't please everybody, and if you do try to please everybody, the only thing you'll end up being able to do is stand there and/or walk. Even then, you'll eventually offend somebody for standing and walking. The best thing to do is take this for what it is; a light-hearted joke. and move on. It's not worth the debates and arguments that come with it. there are bigger problems to worry about than a guy dressed in women's clothing.

sergiosgc 13y ago

Humour has no barriers. And it shouldn't have. We joke about death. We joke about illness. We joke about disabilities. We joke about just everything. Laughter and humour is what separates us from monkeys. Let the monkeys be politically correct. We'll have a good laugh in the meantime. The fact that you feel offended is the itself the result of misogyny. If the world were misogyny-free, there would be no offense implied. It is not, but we should fake until we make it.

cmyr 13y ago
The 'humour has no barriers' thing is dependent on that humour working. This just seems tone-deaf.
- sergiosgc 13y ago
  For any kind of humour,it won't ressonate with a segment of the population. This does not invalidate the argument.

fruzz 13y ago

Thank you. It's 'funny' because a man wearing makeup and a skirt is something you're supposed to find ridiculous. Meanwhile, a woman wearing masculine attire isn't funny. I'm a trans woman. People I've never met before make it their business to come up to me in public and make dehumanizing statements. Or threaten my life. My friends have been beaten up for not satisfying gender roles. I lost one friend to suicide, and my lover was hospitalized after his attempt. All because this society is so fixated on making their lives unlivable because of their gender presentation. This 404 page is part of the culture that feeds into this. The double standard between women dressing masculine, and men dressing feminine, speaks to a greater underlying prejudice.

peterwwillis 13y ago
> This 404 page is part of the culture that feeds into this. The 404 page is a picture of a guy with makeup on and wearing a dress. This could be a picture of a transwoman, or a gay man in drag; would it still be feeding into a culture of transphobia? How could you tell without knowing the context of the picture? If you know Richard Branson, you know he is a straight cisman. So him dressing in drag becomes confusing. Why could he be doing this? Is it wrong for him to dress in drag for any reason at all? Are there some acceptable reasons why a straight cisman can dress in drag? If so, what are those reasons, and who gets to decide? You might say that people who would get offended by him would be the ones to make this decision. For example, black people get to decide that white people can't say the N word and that they can't dress in blackface, because it's offensive to them. And we all accept that. -- But why would someone dress up in blackface, or say the N word? Would it be to make fun of black people? Perhaps someone wants to appropriate a culture different than theirs, or re-enact some historical figure. Or perhaps they're just racist. And why would a straight cisman dress up as a woman? Is it to make some point about gender inequality, or to show solidarity with transwomen, or to re-enact some popular historical figure/singer? Maybe they found it thrilling to challenge their own and others' expectations of their own gender expression? Or are they just sexist/misogynist or transphobic? -- You have experienced discrimination because people don't like who you are. It's not your gender presentation they hate, because these men (i'm betting it's all men) like females that present female. What they hate is the confusing and uncomfortable feeling of something they can't understand. It challenges their idea of what a woman is. They are attracted to ciswomen, and everything in their head tells them they should never be attracted to males. So when a male dresses as a woman, it creates a conflict they can't resolve. So they lash out in order to resolve their internal conflict; it proves to themselves that they don't actually find a male attractive. This is of course part of the basis for transphobia/cissexism. And so what should we do to fix this? Should we make solid lines where cisfolk can not deviate from their expected gender norms, and transfolk can not deviate from their expected norms, and force everyone to accept people in only their preferred gender presentation? Should we prevent anyone from ridiculing anyone else, or perhaps just prevent the majority from ridiculing the minority? What's fair, and what's acceptable, and who gets to decide? -- Perhaps there's a better way. Perhaps we can educate people to understand their fellow human being. Perhaps we can educate people to understand themselves. And where does this education happen? In the schools? At work? In the streets? At home? Really, we need it all. We all need to help each other learn. We need to help people understand that how someone dresses or who they like doesn't affect anyone but them; that they're doing no harm, and should be allowed to live their lives however they want, regardless of what you think of it or them. The gay community is really starting to get there now that gay marriage is becoming more popular. Hopefully in my generation, politicians will no longer be ashamed to be gay, and will come out and proudly support their country as gay elected representatives. And then hopefully transpeople, queer, neutrois, etc will do the same. It's a long, difficult, uphill slog through our cultural and emotional baggage until we get there. I don't think shaming someone for dressing in drag is going to push us up that hill. But continuing to tell your story, and continuing to educate people, will inch us closer. I say we should all become more educated, and educate each other, and be compassionate and empathetic even to those that would rather hate than appreciate. Because I think the only thing that's going to create positive change is positive action. -- Thank you for being yourself, and being courageous, and getting through our shitshow of a culture. Thank you for making a small difference towards helping other people like yourself - one day - no longer be victims of this kind of abuse.

phaus 13y ago

>Why is it so hard to try to understand someone when they feel offended, instead of telling them they are being hypersensitive? It might be hard for you to imagine, but some people are, in fact, hypersensitive. Some people make a hobby out of finding things offensive; society should generally laugh at these people and ignore them. That being said, there are also plenty of situations where someone can be legitimately offended by something. >1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. This is just plain silly. Textbook hypersensitivity. Anyone who would be offended for this reason is an idiot. >2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. However, "body image distress" is real and it even drives people to suicide [1]. Violence against transgender people is very common as well. Homosexuality used to be listed as mental disorders in DSM I and II, but was removed in 1974. "Gender identity disorder" was finally removed in DSM V last year [2]. In august, a 21 year-old transgendered woman was beaten to death in New York, to just mention one of the many victims of hate crimes against these people. This one, on the other hand, makes a little more sense. That being said, people still shouldn't care when other people make fun of the things they like doing in a generalized way.

teh_klev 13y ago

> 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Bollocks, I know more male cabin crew than I do women cabin crew. You're the one typecasting flight attendants as being women. In fact many most of the recent flights in the UK I've flown on have an equal number of male/female cabin crew and...shock horror....cockpit crew. This being top post on HN is truly fucking shameful. A bunch of made up offence about a CEO who painted his face when he lost a bet. Please, go get a life and a sense of humour. >Disclaimer: I'm comparing misogyny to racism and transphobia to homophobia. Apples and oranges. This is a bit offensive, too. My intention is not to say that they are the same, but to try to draw parallels between attitudes that most people find wrong, and attitudes that are generally accepted. Why is it okay to make fun of asians? Who is making fun of asians? Where the fuck did that come from? Sorry my friend, you are way off the pathway with these assumptions and veiled accusations. It's a joke. Get a fucking sense of humour. ps: ever heard of pantomime? Women dress as men, men dress as women.