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This bet was attacked by feminists (rightly? or too sensitive?) : the idea of it being a humiliating punishment for a respectable businessman having to dress up

by timje1 13y ago

This bet was attacked by feminists (rightly? or too sensitive?) : the idea of it being a humiliating punishment for a respectable businessman having to dress up like a woman and serve other men. So it was my understanding that Virgin backed away from this bet and tried to downplay it. I'm a bit surprised by this picture cropping up on the website. Am I being hypersensitive? No-one else seems to have picked up on this aspect in the comments yet. edit: to clarify, here's the comment threads on a jezebel, a website with a significantly more active female membership http://jezebel.com/richard-branson-serves-juice-on-the-airline-of-your-nig-503408547 http://jezebel.com/richard-branson-serves-juice-on-the-airli... Some examples - It's so disrespectful to their cabin crew (particularly female cabin crew, and also women in general) that they're dressing up as them for a laugh. But being a woman is a punchline, right? Because being female is about as low, ridiculous and debased as a person can get, riiiiight? I'm glad I'm not the only one who had that reaction; I was too afraid to say anything lest I be accused of having no sense of humour So I don't think that I'm making this up, or alone in thinking this. There's definitely a discussion to be had.

bruceboughton 13y ago
>> Am I being hypersensitive? Yes, you are.
001sky 13y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_%28clothing%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_%28clothing%29
- timje1 13y ago
  There's a big difference between wearing drag for theatre, personal empowerment, kicks / w/e, and being forced to dress like a woman as a punishment or forfeit.
  - nness 13y ago
    Is it punishment? He's not under any kind of duress.
    - timje1 13y ago
      Perhaps punishment was too strong. But it was a forfeit on a bet, and the implication of having to dress up as one of the female cabin crew as a forfeit is distasteful at best, however innocent the intention.
      - 001sky 13y ago
        Dressing up in drag is a time honoured tradition for comedy sketches. In places like London or New York city (that have strong arts and theatre traditions) this is a completely normal thing. Nobody would beat an eyelash at a transestite or a drag queen. The Mayor of New York used to do it all the time.[1] By turning this bet into a comedy sketch, branson is just displaying some wit, and he pulls it off. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayoralty_of_Rudy_Giuliani#Drag_appearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayoralty_of_Rudy_Giuliani#Dra... That being said, you have every right to be offended. However, It seems a bit rich tho that you need to justify your offense by quoting some 3rd party "explanation" and then trying to sell other people on it. You're not selling your own view, in that case IMHO.
        timje1 13y ago
        That's very true, it was just simply that I had multiple friends (feminists and LBGT+ individuals) that were offended when the original pictures came out - this was the first thing that came to mind when visiting the 404 page. "Oh, I remember this, it offended lots of people". Then I come to this thread on HN and absolutely no-one had commented on the controversy (at the time of my original comment) - I figured this was down to the skewed demographics of the site. So I raised it as a point of discussion, to see what the community thought, and to try to provoke a bit of discussion of the apparently overlooked aspects of this piece. I agree that he pulled it off with great humour, but I can't help but wince at the insensitivity of a rich straight guy losing a bet and having to dress up as a parody of his own female flight staff (who earn 1000x less than him) ...
  - sp332 13y ago
    Being British, he could have done a much better job of the drag outfit :) The "punishment" is doing a bad job of looking like a woman!
tinco 13y ago
1. Many men find it humiliating to dress like a woman and do make up. 2. Many men find it humiliating to serve for their competitor. 3. Richard Branson is a man. All the logical prepositions you need to show that there is at least one interpretation for the events that does not involve misogyny. Why bend over backwards to smear a man who has made so many women rich and powerful?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- timje1 13y ago
  It's still possible that a man "who has made so many women rich and powerful" might do something distasteful or misjudged - and it's possible to propose a discussion about this behaviour without it turning into a smear. The fact that many men find it humiliating to dress like a woman is exactly what I find distasteful. With my apologies for escalating the rhetoric : many men find the idea of sex with another man humiliating - does this justify making fun of homosexuals?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - tinco 13y ago
    No, and he is not making fun of women, he is making fun of his own masculinity. And there's a difference between making fun of homosexuals to hurt them, and to make fun of them to be merry with them. Thirdly, your opinion on the feelings of men in general is rather inconsequential. What do you want to do, flog every man who finds it humiliating to dress in drag?
    - JonnieCache 13y ago
      No. He wants to have a discussion of gender issues to try and increase mutual understanding and global human happiness. Unfortunately that's an almost impossible discussion to have, because some people always divert the community into a pointless meta-discussion about whether it's legitimate to have the first discussion or not. I've almost never seen HN discuss gender. I've seen it discuss discussing gender for pages and pages and pages...
mattwritescode 13y ago
Being too sensitive, all it is, is a man who likes to dress up in ladies clothes (or are men not allowed to do this any more ;-P)
hmottestad 13y ago
I agree with you, however I was wondering why showing cross dressing as a 404 page was funny. I much prefer the github 404 page or the one from hw.no http://www.hardware.no/abc http://www.hardware.no/abc
circuiter 13y ago
> This bet was attacked by feminists (rightly? or too sensitive?) Everything you do gets attacked by someone. If you ate meat for dinner; if you drove a car; if you use Microsoft Windows; if you didn't pray to Zeus, you offended someone's sensitivities. So if feminists attacked this bet, just ignore them.
nness 13y ago
I would say that "punishment" is the wrong word, and with it, we can draw much stronger negative interpretations that I feel might be appropriate. To me it looks like it was a social bet, between two friends, and he is doing it for fun (and to poke fun at himself). I would imagine that would fall pretty close to the definition of a drag queen (particularly the accentuation of certain characteristics, it does look very over the top). Given his appearance, the bet may have been explicit in saying that they would need to to dress in drag (and not "dress as a women"). Some might argue they are different, and in that, he's not saying "it is humiliating to be a women" but rather "it is funny to contrast how I normally look with something so different."
spuz 13y ago
I think you should say "some feminists". The great 99% of the rest of us really don't see the problem with it.
- ksrm 13y ago
  "Don't speak for everyone! That's my job!"
lucasnemeth 13y ago
You're not being hypersensitive, this is sexist and transphobic. Let's imagine if he had lost a bet and had to paint his face black, and them serve his competitors, everybody would agree that's racist. I don't even think there is much to discuss here.
- bmelton 13y ago
  Not everyone would agree that was racist.
peterwwillis 13y ago
The only reason anyone gets pissed off at stunts like this is they feel like somebody isn't taking them seriously. But the whole point of the stunt IS TO NOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. The real joke is that anyone using this as an example of sexism, transphobia or offensive behavior is making their own cause seem trivial. Give me a picture that involves sex, gender, skin color, religion, country, or any other thing that can make a person feel offended, and I will find you someone more than willing to yell about it without knowing any context whatsoever.
sp332 13y ago
As a (male) feminist, I think Jezebel is full of people who just like piling on. Maybe it's a community bonding thing, or maybe it's cathartic, but the comments sections are always overblown.
- girvo 13y ago
  The understatement of the year...

by timje1 13y ago

bruceboughton 13y ago

>> Am I being hypersensitive? Yes, you are.

001sky 13y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_%28clothing%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_%28clothing%29

timje1 13y ago
There's a big difference between wearing drag for theatre, personal empowerment, kicks / w/e, and being forced to dress like a woman as a punishment or forfeit.
- nness 13y ago
  Is it punishment? He's not under any kind of duress.
  - timje1 13y ago
    Perhaps punishment was too strong. But it was a forfeit on a bet, and the implication of having to dress up as one of the female cabin crew as a forfeit is distasteful at best, however innocent the intention.
    - 001sky 13y ago
      Dressing up in drag is a time honoured tradition for comedy sketches. In places like London or New York city (that have strong arts and theatre traditions) this is a completely normal thing. Nobody would beat an eyelash at a transestite or a drag queen. The Mayor of New York used to do it all the time.[1] By turning this bet into a comedy sketch, branson is just displaying some wit, and he pulls it off. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayoralty_of_Rudy_Giuliani#Drag_appearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayoralty_of_Rudy_Giuliani#Dra... That being said, you have every right to be offended. However, It seems a bit rich tho that you need to justify your offense by quoting some 3rd party "explanation" and then trying to sell other people on it. You're not selling your own view, in that case IMHO.
      - timje1 13y ago
        That's very true, it was just simply that I had multiple friends (feminists and LBGT+ individuals) that were offended when the original pictures came out - this was the first thing that came to mind when visiting the 404 page. "Oh, I remember this, it offended lots of people". Then I come to this thread on HN and absolutely no-one had commented on the controversy (at the time of my original comment) - I figured this was down to the skewed demographics of the site. So I raised it as a point of discussion, to see what the community thought, and to try to provoke a bit of discussion of the apparently overlooked aspects of this piece. I agree that he pulled it off with great humour, but I can't help but wince at the insensitivity of a rich straight guy losing a bet and having to dress up as a parody of his own female flight staff (who earn 1000x less than him) ...
- sp332 13y ago
  Being British, he could have done a much better job of the drag outfit :) The "punishment" is doing a bad job of looking like a woman!

tinco 13y ago

1. Many men find it humiliating to dress like a woman and do make up. 2. Many men find it humiliating to serve for their competitor. 3. Richard Branson is a man. All the logical prepositions you need to show that there is at least one interpretation for the events that does not involve misogyny. Why bend over backwards to smear a man who has made so many women rich and powerful?

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
timje1 13y ago
It's still possible that a man "who has made so many women rich and powerful" might do something distasteful or misjudged - and it's possible to propose a discussion about this behaviour without it turning into a smear. The fact that many men find it humiliating to dress like a woman is exactly what I find distasteful. With my apologies for escalating the rhetoric : many men find the idea of sex with another man humiliating - does this justify making fun of homosexuals?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- tinco 13y ago
  No, and he is not making fun of women, he is making fun of his own masculinity. And there's a difference between making fun of homosexuals to hurt them, and to make fun of them to be merry with them. Thirdly, your opinion on the feelings of men in general is rather inconsequential. What do you want to do, flog every man who finds it humiliating to dress in drag?
  - JonnieCache 13y ago
    No. He wants to have a discussion of gender issues to try and increase mutual understanding and global human happiness. Unfortunately that's an almost impossible discussion to have, because some people always divert the community into a pointless meta-discussion about whether it's legitimate to have the first discussion or not. I've almost never seen HN discuss gender. I've seen it discuss discussing gender for pages and pages and pages...

mattwritescode 13y ago

Being too sensitive, all it is, is a man who likes to dress up in ladies clothes (or are men not allowed to do this any more ;-P)

hmottestad 13y ago

I agree with you, however I was wondering why showing cross dressing as a 404 page was funny. I much prefer the github 404 page or the one from hw.no http://www.hardware.no/abc http://www.hardware.no/abc

circuiter 13y ago

> This bet was attacked by feminists (rightly? or too sensitive?) Everything you do gets attacked by someone. If you ate meat for dinner; if you drove a car; if you use Microsoft Windows; if you didn't pray to Zeus, you offended someone's sensitivities. So if feminists attacked this bet, just ignore them.

nness 13y ago

I would say that "punishment" is the wrong word, and with it, we can draw much stronger negative interpretations that I feel might be appropriate. To me it looks like it was a social bet, between two friends, and he is doing it for fun (and to poke fun at himself). I would imagine that would fall pretty close to the definition of a drag queen (particularly the accentuation of certain characteristics, it does look very over the top). Given his appearance, the bet may have been explicit in saying that they would need to to dress in drag (and not "dress as a women"). Some might argue they are different, and in that, he's not saying "it is humiliating to be a women" but rather "it is funny to contrast how I normally look with something so different."

spuz 13y ago

I think you should say "some feminists". The great 99% of the rest of us really don't see the problem with it.

ksrm 13y ago
"Don't speak for everyone! That's my job!"

lucasnemeth 13y ago

You're not being hypersensitive, this is sexist and transphobic. Let's imagine if he had lost a bet and had to paint his face black, and them serve his competitors, everybody would agree that's racist. I don't even think there is much to discuss here.

bmelton 13y ago
Not everyone would agree that was racist.

peterwwillis 13y ago

The only reason anyone gets pissed off at stunts like this is they feel like somebody isn't taking them seriously. But the whole point of the stunt IS TO NOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. The real joke is that anyone using this as an example of sexism, transphobia or offensive behavior is making their own cause seem trivial. Give me a picture that involves sex, gender, skin color, religion, country, or any other thing that can make a person feel offended, and I will find you someone more than willing to yell about it without knowing any context whatsoever.

sp332 13y ago

As a (male) feminist, I think Jezebel is full of people who just like piling on. Maybe it's a community bonding thing, or maybe it's cathartic, but the comments sections are always overblown.

girvo 13y ago
The understatement of the year...