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Let's say every mathematician agreed to no longer talk to NSA at all. NSA would just hire Computer Scientists and dump loads of money into security research. Or

by theboss 13y ago

Let's say every mathematician agreed to no longer talk to NSA at all. NSA would just hire Computer Scientists and dump loads of money into security research. Or they would hire computer scientists to work as insiders at M$, Apple, Cisco, etc.etc. and push well hidden vulnerable code There's no shortage of things you can do when you have a lot of money.

genwin 13y ago
During South Africa's Apartheid its leadership did lots of things to combat the sanctions other countries placed against the country. Eventually it wasn't worth the effort.
betterunix 13y ago
So you are suggesting that if the NSA is working against us, we should just throw our hands in the air and say, "Oh well!" I think perhaps you are a bit too cynical. Why shouldn't the relevant academic communities -- CS, math, EE, etc. -- raise the social cost of working for the NSA? If a biologist learned that one of his colleagues was working on biological weapons, should he just shrug it off or should he reconsider his friendship?
- theboss 13y ago
  No. I'm only saying that if your goal is to prevent the NSA from working against you then this isn't the way to prevent that. People seem to be a bit upset that I think so also. If there are whole countries that are angry and the US Govt doesn't care then why would they care when a subset of a subset of their possible employees are mad.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    > "I'm only saying that if your goal is to prevent the NSA from working against you then this isn't the way to prevent that" We shouldn't be looking for "the way". We should be looking for "ways" This is something that mathematicians can do (and I would say CS people as well). This action is not meant to exclude other action. Programmers can also work on systems that are more difficult to subvert, companies can find new ways to not collect personal information in the first place, the general population can call for reform and ultimately trials for the guilty parties, individuals in trusted positions can leak details and/or engage in sabotage... Every potential avenue for change should be explored. In parallel. Deeply.
  - betterunix 13y ago
    Raising the social cost of working for the NSA means raising the difficulty the NSA faces in attracting talented employees. Already the NSA has to convince mathematicians and computer scientists to give up certain career paths when they begin work for the NSA. That alone makes it difficult for the NSA to attract talent. So adding a social cost to working for the NSA would make it that much harder. A grad student considering a career with the NSA should be forced to consider the possibility that their adviser and their friends might not be willing to even talk to them as a result. It may not seem like much, but every time a talented researcher chooses to work for the public instead for the NSA, the public wins a small victory.
  - jacalata 13y ago
    You might ask, why should the NSA worry if the common attitude to whistleblowing/leaking/being the next Edward Snowden among their possible employees is 'yea, I'd do that, partly because I know that most of my peers would approve of me for it'?

by theboss 13y ago

genwin 13y ago

During South Africa's Apartheid its leadership did lots of things to combat the sanctions other countries placed against the country. Eventually it wasn't worth the effort.

betterunix 13y ago

So you are suggesting that if the NSA is working against us, we should just throw our hands in the air and say, "Oh well!" I think perhaps you are a bit too cynical. Why shouldn't the relevant academic communities -- CS, math, EE, etc. -- raise the social cost of working for the NSA? If a biologist learned that one of his colleagues was working on biological weapons, should he just shrug it off or should he reconsider his friendship?

theboss 13y ago
No. I'm only saying that if your goal is to prevent the NSA from working against you then this isn't the way to prevent that. People seem to be a bit upset that I think so also. If there are whole countries that are angry and the US Govt doesn't care then why would they care when a subset of a subset of their possible employees are mad.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  > "I'm only saying that if your goal is to prevent the NSA from working against you then this isn't the way to prevent that" We shouldn't be looking for "the way". We should be looking for "ways" This is something that mathematicians can do (and I would say CS people as well). This action is not meant to exclude other action. Programmers can also work on systems that are more difficult to subvert, companies can find new ways to not collect personal information in the first place, the general population can call for reform and ultimately trials for the guilty parties, individuals in trusted positions can leak details and/or engage in sabotage... Every potential avenue for change should be explored. In parallel. Deeply.
- betterunix 13y ago
  Raising the social cost of working for the NSA means raising the difficulty the NSA faces in attracting talented employees. Already the NSA has to convince mathematicians and computer scientists to give up certain career paths when they begin work for the NSA. That alone makes it difficult for the NSA to attract talent. So adding a social cost to working for the NSA would make it that much harder. A grad student considering a career with the NSA should be forced to consider the possibility that their adviser and their friends might not be willing to even talk to them as a result. It may not seem like much, but every time a talented researcher chooses to work for the public instead for the NSA, the public wins a small victory.
- jacalata 13y ago
  You might ask, why should the NSA worry if the common attitude to whistleblowing/leaking/being the next Edward Snowden among their possible employees is 'yea, I'd do that, partly because I know that most of my peers would approve of me for it'?