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I must have read a dozen (conservative estimate) articles now all called "Why you should never use MongoDB ever" - or permutation thereof. Each and every one of

by scbrg 13y ago

I must have read a dozen (conservative estimate) articles now all called "Why you should never use MongoDB ever" - or permutation thereof. Each and every one of them ought to have been called "I knew fuckall about MongoDB and started writing my software as if it was a full ACID compliant RDBMS and it bit me." There are essentially two points that always come up: 1. Oh my God it's not relational! Well, you could argue that if you move from a type of software that is specifically called RELATIONAL Database Management System to one that isn't, one of the things you may lose is relation handling. Do your homework and deal with it. 2. Oh my God it doesn't have transactions! This is, arguably, slightly less obvious, and in combination with #1 can cause issues. There are practices to work around it, but it is hardly to be considered a surprise. I keep stumbling on these stories - but still these are the two major issues that are raised. I'm starting to get a bit puzzled by the fact that these things are still considered surprises. In either case, I'm happily using MongoDB. It has its fair share of quirks and limitations, but it also has its advantages. Learn about the advantages and disadvantages, and try to avoid locking too large parts of your code to the storage backend and you'll be fine. FWIW, I think the real benefit of MongoDB is flexibility w/r to schema and datamodel changes. It fits very, very well with a development process which is based on refactoring and minor redesigns when new requirements are defined. I much prefer that over the "guess everything three years in advance" model, and MongoDB has served us well in that respect.

jahewson 13y ago
I'm not sure what these two strawmen have to do with the article. Perhaps you've been reading another article?
rdtsc 13y ago
> I must have read a dozen (conservative estimate) articles now all called "Why you should never use MongoDB ever" Strange statistical oddity if you ask me right? How many "don't use PostgreSQL" or "don't use Cassandra" or "don't use SQLite" have you seen? Not as many. It is just very odd isn't it... So either everyone is crazy or maybe there is something to it. I lean towards the later here. > 1. Oh my God it's not relational! ... > 2. Oh my God it doesn't have transactions! Maybe those, you forget about: 3. Claim "webscale" performance while having a database wide write lock. 4. Until 2 years ago shipped with unacknowledged writes as a default. Talk about craziness. A _data_base product shipping with unacknowledged send-and-pray protocol as a default option. Are you surprised people criticize MongoDB? Because I am not at all. Sorry but after that I cannot let them within 100 feet of my data. They are cool guys perhaps and maybe having beers with them would be fun, but trusting them with data? -- sorry, can't do.
- dangayle 13y ago
  > A _data_base product shipping with unacknowledged send-and-pray protocol as a default option. MongoDB had a default initial fire-and-forget mentality, but that was on purpose for their initial use cases. Just because someone else uses the tool for a different purpose doesn't mean the software is to blame. Also, if you're complaining about the default settings and you were running this in production, RTFM.
  - rdtsc 13y ago
    > MongoDB had a default initial fire-and-forget mentality, but that was on purpose for their initial use cases Yes I call that deceitful marketing. It wasn't an accidental bug or an "oops". I don't know how someone can be considered honest or trusted with data when they ship a d_a_t_a_base product with those defaults. Call it random storage for 'gossakes, that would ok, anything but "database". > Also, if you're complaining about the default settings and you were running this in production, RTFM Yes and I also don't expect to read the fine print on last page of a manual to enable the brakes when I buy a car. I expect cars to have brakes enabled by default, even if it somehow makes them not go as as fast in benchmark tests.
    - lttlrck 13y ago
      It still boils down RTFM and don't trust marketeers, right?
      - rdtsc 13y ago
        Mostly, "don't trust marketeers with you data", which I don't.
adamconroy 13y ago
Given it is relatively new tech. Who is qualified to write about? Presumably by the end the authors did know a bit. Don't you think such articles, assuming they are objective, might be useful to others that are thinking of dipping their toes in the water?
emn13 13y ago
Mongo is absolutely TERRIBLE for schema changes. It is a terrible fit for refactorings and minor redesigns. (I have implemented and watched several mongo migrations and refactorings) Because you have a schema, but mongo doesn't model it, you're left to your own devices to implement the migration. If you have real data, and a normal legacy situation, you can't assume all data will necessarily follow the "schema" you think you have - after all, it's implicit. But that means that writing the migration can be quite tricky. There are no validations, no foreign key checks, no constraints you can use to validate your migration did what you think it did. You'll need to do all that in your own code. This is short for: you're going to be lazy and not check it quite as well as you would have otherwise, and the checks you do implement might be buggy. Furthermore, if a particular entity does fail a migration... what then? In postgres, which supports transactional DDL, you can rollback schema changes - so even if the last entity failed to migration because your assumptions were wrong - and even if the validation had to be in code, not in the database - you can revert to the initial situation. In mongo? Uh-oh; you're in trouble. You better be in a copy of your production database; but if you are, that means that your main database needs to be offline or in read-only mode so that writes aren't lost. Does mongo have a read-only flag? By contrast, postgres (and other Sql databases) are transactional and support snapshots - you can do the safe migration with rollback support all while online for as long as there aren't any conflict; and when there are, it's detected, and you have a range of options from locking to retries to avoid the conflicts. In practice, I can't imagine a worse tool for schema and datamodel changes. If your schema change is trivial, it's not so bad; but then, if you're only renaming a property that has no external references to it or adding a property or whatever - sql is trivial too. Mongodb for schema-changes is sort of like writing an automated refactoring for a dynamic programming language codebase that's too large to manually inspect at all and without unit tests tests nor a VCS. You won't necessarily know what goes wrong or even if anything goes wrong; you won't get system support for guaranteeing at least minimal consistency; and if something goes wrong you'll have a corrupted half-way state.

by scbrg 13y ago

jahewson 13y ago

I'm not sure what these two strawmen have to do with the article. Perhaps you've been reading another article?

rdtsc 13y ago

> I must have read a dozen (conservative estimate) articles now all called "Why you should never use MongoDB ever" Strange statistical oddity if you ask me right? How many "don't use PostgreSQL" or "don't use Cassandra" or "don't use SQLite" have you seen? Not as many. It is just very odd isn't it... So either everyone is crazy or maybe there is something to it. I lean towards the later here. > 1. Oh my God it's not relational! ... > 2. Oh my God it doesn't have transactions! Maybe those, you forget about: 3. Claim "webscale" performance while having a database wide write lock. 4. Until 2 years ago shipped with unacknowledged writes as a default. Talk about craziness. A _data_base product shipping with unacknowledged send-and-pray protocol as a default option. Are you surprised people criticize MongoDB? Because I am not at all. Sorry but after that I cannot let them within 100 feet of my data. They are cool guys perhaps and maybe having beers with them would be fun, but trusting them with data? -- sorry, can't do.

dangayle 13y ago
> A _data_base product shipping with unacknowledged send-and-pray protocol as a default option. MongoDB had a default initial fire-and-forget mentality, but that was on purpose for their initial use cases. Just because someone else uses the tool for a different purpose doesn't mean the software is to blame. Also, if you're complaining about the default settings and you were running this in production, RTFM.
- rdtsc 13y ago
  > MongoDB had a default initial fire-and-forget mentality, but that was on purpose for their initial use cases Yes I call that deceitful marketing. It wasn't an accidental bug or an "oops". I don't know how someone can be considered honest or trusted with data when they ship a d_a_t_a_base product with those defaults. Call it random storage for 'gossakes, that would ok, anything but "database". > Also, if you're complaining about the default settings and you were running this in production, RTFM Yes and I also don't expect to read the fine print on last page of a manual to enable the brakes when I buy a car. I expect cars to have brakes enabled by default, even if it somehow makes them not go as as fast in benchmark tests.
  - lttlrck 13y ago
    It still boils down RTFM and don't trust marketeers, right?
    - rdtsc 13y ago
      Mostly, "don't trust marketeers with you data", which I don't.

adamconroy 13y ago

Given it is relatively new tech. Who is qualified to write about? Presumably by the end the authors did know a bit. Don't you think such articles, assuming they are objective, might be useful to others that are thinking of dipping their toes in the water?

emn13 13y ago

Mongo is absolutely TERRIBLE for schema changes. It is a terrible fit for refactorings and minor redesigns. (I have implemented and watched several mongo migrations and refactorings) Because you have a schema, but mongo doesn't model it, you're left to your own devices to implement the migration. If you have real data, and a normal legacy situation, you can't assume all data will necessarily follow the "schema" you think you have - after all, it's implicit. But that means that writing the migration can be quite tricky. There are no validations, no foreign key checks, no constraints you can use to validate your migration did what you think it did. You'll need to do all that in your own code. This is short for: you're going to be lazy and not check it quite as well as you would have otherwise, and the checks you do implement might be buggy. Furthermore, if a particular entity does fail a migration... what then? In postgres, which supports transactional DDL, you can rollback schema changes - so even if the last entity failed to migration because your assumptions were wrong - and even if the validation had to be in code, not in the database - you can revert to the initial situation. In mongo? Uh-oh; you're in trouble. You better be in a copy of your production database; but if you are, that means that your main database needs to be offline or in read-only mode so that writes aren't lost. Does mongo have a read-only flag? By contrast, postgres (and other Sql databases) are transactional and support snapshots - you can do the safe migration with rollback support all while online for as long as there aren't any conflict; and when there are, it's detected, and you have a range of options from locking to retries to avoid the conflicts. In practice, I can't imagine a worse tool for schema and datamodel changes. If your schema change is trivial, it's not so bad; but then, if you're only renaming a property that has no external references to it or adding a property or whatever - sql is trivial too. Mongodb for schema-changes is sort of like writing an automated refactoring for a dynamic programming language codebase that's too large to manually inspect at all and without unit tests tests nor a VCS. You won't necessarily know what goes wrong or even if anything goes wrong; you won't get system support for guaranteeing at least minimal consistency; and if something goes wrong you'll have a corrupted half-way state.