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That is actually also wrong. Its rather a case of each engineering profession is a regulated industry with an accreditation body, that certifies you as an engi
by kabouseng 13y ago
That is actually also wrong.
Its rather a case of each engineering profession is a regulated industry with an accreditation body, that certifies you as an engineer. Mechanical, electrical, electronic, chemical, industrial, civil, all have standards organisations, usually different ones in each country.
See IEEE for instance...
Also the engineer term is a protected designation in many countries, just as doctor and laywer is...
So no. engineers aren't guys that design stuff, and until the software industry is as regulated as the rest of the engineering industries are, software engineer is the wrong term. The only people who can call themselves software engineers perhaps is working in the medical device, avionics software etc. industries.
- TheCoelacanth 13y agoAt least in the US (which has the largest software industry of anywhere in the world), the title of engineer is not regulated. Only the title "Professional Engineer" is regulated. Accreditation for engineers only applies to areas that have an impact on public safety. This means that civil engineers usually are accredited, but mechanical and electrical engineers usually aren't. So for people located in the US, it is perfectly appropriate to refer to someone as a software engineer.
- kabouseng 13y agoPlease don't find this reply condescending :D But Americans also call their train operators "engineers"...
- TheCoelacanth 13y agoI don't find that condescending. What I do find condescending is attempting to apply the laws of certain countries to the world as a whole. There are, in fact, many jurisdictions where being an engineer does not require any form of accreditation. The fact that some jurisdictions do require accreditation does not give engineers in other jurisdictions any less claim to the title.
- kabouseng 13y agoWhere did I do that? You were the one highlighting America as having the biggest software industry...
- TheCoelacanth 13y agoThe part where you claimed that only people who are officially accredited are engineers. People who live and work somewhere without such accreditation are completely justified in calling themselves engineers without being accredited.
- kabouseng 13y agoMy apologies then, I was not trying to force my viewpoint, I only shared it. Just as I don't believe anyone who's read Gray's anatomy (the book) can or should call themselves a doctor, just the same I don't believe anyone writing code should call themselves an engineer...
- TheCoelacanth 13y agoSo, according to your viewpoint, there were no doctor's in the US until the late 1800's?
- kabouseng 13y agoYou'll have to provide a bit more context for me. But again comparing modern day professions to the 19th century equivalent does not bode well for your argument. If you'd prefer the medical industry return to its standards and practices of the 19th century, your welcome to visit such a doctor. I prefer my modern day certified medical professional.
- TheCoelacanth 13y agoThe late 1800's is when doctors were first licensed in the US. Before that doctors practiced medicine but were not licensed, yet they were still doctors. Official licensing undoubtedly raises the quality of doctor's practicing medicine, but it is not an inherent quality of being a doctor. In most places, someone is not allowed to practice medicine without a license, but in places without medical licensing, someone who practices medicine without a license is still a doctor. Engineering is the same. Licensing most likely raises the quality of engineers, but that does not mean an unlicensed person who does the job of an engineer is not an engineer.
- zb 13y agoCan we agree that any definition of "engineer" that excludes Filippo Brunelleschi or Leonardo da Vinci (as yours does) is worthless?
- kabouseng 13y agoThats a bit of a random litmus test ;D I would hope we would have gone a bit further than the Renaissance era in how we define professional fields. Would you also call Leonardo da Vinci a doctor, since he did breakthrough anatomical work? In that same vein, would you call a random person digging up graves and dissecting corpses a doctor today? Would you let them operate on you?
- TheCoelacanth 13y agoLeonardo da Vinci wasn't a doctor because he didn't practice medicine. He studied corpses; he didn't operate on living humans. On the other hand, it would be ludicrous to say that Hippocrates wasn't a doctor. I wouldn't let either operate on me, but I also wouldn't let a licensed doctor from 1920 operate on me either. Modern doctors have vastly superior medical knowledge compared to historical doctors, but that doesn't mean that historical people who practiced medicine aren't doctors.
- kabouseng 13y agoSo let me get this straight. You guys insist on using the definition of the word engineer as stated in the renaissance era, not the modern definition, but also then want to apply that definition to software, which didn't exist for another 400 years afterward? Me thinks the logic isn't quite sound...
- zb 13y agoThere is nothing random about it, the term was invented during the Renaissance to describe exactly such people.