9 ms·

Taiwan’s ‘White Shirt Army,’ spurred by Facebook, takes on political parties

34 points by RougeFemme 13y ago

maaku 13y ago
> While China considers Taiwan a rebellious province to be reunified with the mainland, by force if necessary, Taiwan insists on its rights as a self-governed entity... Hate to be that guy that pulls the issue back to unification when moving beyond that is so obviously the point of this white shirt movement... but this has really got to stop. Every mainstream news outlet repeats the above in articles about Taiwanese politics, but look absolutely ridiculous when they do so. The Republic of China has governed in various forms since 1912. The People's Republic is the upstart rebellion, and Taiwan the last holdout of the older RoC government. Anything else is a gross rewrite of history and communist propaganda, and really annoying to see in print from an otherwise respectable newspaper. Is this a lack of fact checking? Or appeasement of mainland China? Either way looks very bad for an independent news organization.
- ShardPhoenix 13y ago
  They're clearly describing the opinions of (mainland) China, not the factual situation.
- codexon 13y ago
  But the PRC has been in control of China for 60 years and has more than a tiny island. While the PRC used to be a rebellion, that was a long time ago.
  - eob 13y ago
    I'm pretty sure you are replying with the assumption that maaku was making a statement about who should be recognized as "China". I believe he was actually making a statement about the legitimacy of the Taiwanese claim to sovereignty over their own island. Mainland claims to ownership over the island have to be argued from a historical context, since they haven't actually had any administrative control over the island for over 100 years. So maaku was responding to this argument (without actually invoking it) by saying that if the question is "who was there first, the KMT or the PRC" then the KMT technically wins since it both predates the PRC and has maintained uninterrupted control until Taiwan became a democracy. Of course.. the situation is actually more complicated than that because the KMT and PRC are both mainland governments forced upon Taiwan (one successful and one still hoping), while Taiwan has its own history, language, and ethnicities. So in an even broader historical context both are technically "invaders." Such is the fate of all small island nations, perhaps...
    - maaku 13y ago
      Correct, on all accounts.
      - codexon 13y ago
        > legitimacy of the Taiwanese claim to sovereignty over their own island Taiwan has been dominated by Han Chinese ever since the 1600s. It is less of "Taiwanese" trying to govern their own island than the ROC fleeing communism to a distant province that was too hard to invade and too small to care about. Even though it has been left to rule itself mostly for all these years, that does not make it a sovereign nation any more than Hong Kong to China or Puerto Rico to the US.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- yiransheng 13y ago
  While you are certainly right on historical facts and thus the implied legitimacy of RoC, the reality is when a news agency or the public in general mentions the term China, by default they mean P.R. China. Therefore, the quoted sentence is merely describing (not agreeing) with the POV of said China, which is not that ridiculous to a neutral third party. Taiwan is a self-governed sovereignty by most accounts, with its own economy, political system and military. It does not have mainstream international recognition from other countries however, most due to P.R China's pressure. For instance, Taiwan is not part of UN, major nations like US failed to acknowledge it as a independent country due to their reluctance to upsetting mainland China - who frequently threatens open war for such 'treacherous division of the one China'. Therefore, there are only 30 or so countries openly supports Taiwan's independence. The morality of Taiwan's sovereignty debate obviously takes the narrative of a oppressive dictatorship and its democratic neighbor, but to claim Taiwan or RoC as the legitimate government of China and label P.R. China as the illegal, rogue ruler is far-fetched in the current world's landscape; after all the latter has taken control over the China for over half a century, wield much more political and economical power, and is widely acknowledged as a legitimate country for decades. It's almost like saying US is not a legitimate nation, rather ilegal rebellion against the Great Britain ever since some two hundred years ago.
  - eob 13y ago
    "Taiwan is a self-governed sovereignty by most accounts" Sincere question, even though this sounds rhetorical: can you provide a piece of data which suggests Taiwan is not self-governed?
    - eugenejen 13y ago
      i don't know whether this count as data, or just opinions: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan
    - wisty 13y ago
      He said "self-governed sovereignty". It is self-governed. But few countries have the backbone to say that it has the right to be.
- InclinedPlane 13y ago
  Considering the recent public announcement from bloomberg on their policy of appeasement and self-censorship toward mainland China I think it's safe to say similar policies exist elsewhere (either as a matter of policy or merely culture).
- xiaoma 13y ago
  Thank you for saying this. Taiwan has never been part of the PRC. Before its current democratic system, it was a one-party state run by the KMT. Before that, it was under Japanese rule from the 1890s until WWII. Taiwan hasn't been governed by a China government since the Qing Dynasty. That particular country is long gone and is about as connected to the modern day PRC as Hungary is to the Hapsburg Empire. It's not reunification if the two weren't previously unified.
singold 13y ago
One page article http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/taiwans-white-shirt-army-spurred-by-facebook-takes-on-political-parties/2013/11/10/4a1fde52-46e4-11e3-bf0c-cebf37c6f484_print.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/taiwans-whi...
paulhauggis 13y ago
"The rebellious youths in the movement say they are less concerned about what Taiwan calls itself — sovereign, independent or a self-governing area within China" If Taiwan was an area within China, they wouldn't be able to have this group in the first place and most forms of Democracy would be gone. This is why many of the people are so passionate about their beliefs in staying independent. At the moment, it truly is a free country. I know many of the social meetup group sites don't work well in China, because you aren't allowed to meet with more than 10 people at a time. I believe it's because the government is afraid you will try to organize a big group to overthrow them. Here are some more examples: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23795294 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23795294 Here is a breakdown of their new "rumor" law: http://www.dailydot.com/news/china-decree-online-rumors-prison-time/ http://www.dailydot.com/news/china-decree-online-rumors-pris...
- zhemao 13y ago
  I think you misunderstand the political debate. Neither the KMT nor the DPP wants Taiwan to be under the control of the PRC government. The difference is that the KMT wants Taiwan and the mainland to be reunited under the ROC government, while the DPP wants Taiwan to be an independent country.
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    Largely correct, though I question if the "retaking" of China is actually still a part of KMT party doctrine. I don't think anyone seriously expects Taiwan and the mainland to be runited under the flag of the ROC - and if you suggested it people might look at you (rightly) as insane.
  - paulhauggis 13y ago
    My point is that it seems this group doesn't care about being part of China, but they should.
    - zhemao 13y ago
      You're saying that they should care because if Taiwan was part of China, it wouldn't be a free country anymore. I am saying that this is false because neither of the two main parties wants Taiwan to fall under the control of the PRC regime, which is what makes the mainland unfree. What the KMT wants is for Taiwan and the mainland to be reunited under an ostensibly democratic regime. This is, of course, unlikely to happen unless something changes drastically on the mainland, making it somewhat of a pointless debate as far as Taiwanese politics is concerned. Unless the PRC invades Taiwan or collapses, there isn't much of a chance for reunification. What the whiteshirts want is to refocus attention on issues that affect Taiwan in the present day.

34 points by RougeFemme 13y ago

maaku 13y ago

> While China considers Taiwan a rebellious province to be reunified with the mainland, by force if necessary, Taiwan insists on its rights as a self-governed entity... Hate to be that guy that pulls the issue back to unification when moving beyond that is so obviously the point of this white shirt movement... but this has really got to stop. Every mainstream news outlet repeats the above in articles about Taiwanese politics, but look absolutely ridiculous when they do so. The Republic of China has governed in various forms since 1912. The People's Republic is the upstart rebellion, and Taiwan the last holdout of the older RoC government. Anything else is a gross rewrite of history and communist propaganda, and really annoying to see in print from an otherwise respectable newspaper. Is this a lack of fact checking? Or appeasement of mainland China? Either way looks very bad for an independent news organization.

ShardPhoenix 13y ago
They're clearly describing the opinions of (mainland) China, not the factual situation.
codexon 13y ago
But the PRC has been in control of China for 60 years and has more than a tiny island. While the PRC used to be a rebellion, that was a long time ago.
- eob 13y ago
  I'm pretty sure you are replying with the assumption that maaku was making a statement about who should be recognized as "China". I believe he was actually making a statement about the legitimacy of the Taiwanese claim to sovereignty over their own island. Mainland claims to ownership over the island have to be argued from a historical context, since they haven't actually had any administrative control over the island for over 100 years. So maaku was responding to this argument (without actually invoking it) by saying that if the question is "who was there first, the KMT or the PRC" then the KMT technically wins since it both predates the PRC and has maintained uninterrupted control until Taiwan became a democracy. Of course.. the situation is actually more complicated than that because the KMT and PRC are both mainland governments forced upon Taiwan (one successful and one still hoping), while Taiwan has its own history, language, and ethnicities. So in an even broader historical context both are technically "invaders." Such is the fate of all small island nations, perhaps...
  - maaku 13y ago
    Correct, on all accounts.
    - codexon 13y ago
      > legitimacy of the Taiwanese claim to sovereignty over their own island Taiwan has been dominated by Han Chinese ever since the 1600s. It is less of "Taiwanese" trying to govern their own island than the ROC fleeing communism to a distant province that was too hard to invade and too small to care about. Even though it has been left to rule itself mostly for all these years, that does not make it a sovereign nation any more than Hong Kong to China or Puerto Rico to the US.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
yiransheng 13y ago
While you are certainly right on historical facts and thus the implied legitimacy of RoC, the reality is when a news agency or the public in general mentions the term China, by default they mean P.R. China. Therefore, the quoted sentence is merely describing (not agreeing) with the POV of said China, which is not that ridiculous to a neutral third party. Taiwan is a self-governed sovereignty by most accounts, with its own economy, political system and military. It does not have mainstream international recognition from other countries however, most due to P.R China's pressure. For instance, Taiwan is not part of UN, major nations like US failed to acknowledge it as a independent country due to their reluctance to upsetting mainland China - who frequently threatens open war for such 'treacherous division of the one China'. Therefore, there are only 30 or so countries openly supports Taiwan's independence. The morality of Taiwan's sovereignty debate obviously takes the narrative of a oppressive dictatorship and its democratic neighbor, but to claim Taiwan or RoC as the legitimate government of China and label P.R. China as the illegal, rogue ruler is far-fetched in the current world's landscape; after all the latter has taken control over the China for over half a century, wield much more political and economical power, and is widely acknowledged as a legitimate country for decades. It's almost like saying US is not a legitimate nation, rather ilegal rebellion against the Great Britain ever since some two hundred years ago.
- eob 13y ago
  "Taiwan is a self-governed sovereignty by most accounts" Sincere question, even though this sounds rhetorical: can you provide a piece of data which suggests Taiwan is not self-governed?
  - eugenejen 13y ago
    i don't know whether this count as data, or just opinions: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan
  - wisty 13y ago
    He said "self-governed sovereignty". It is self-governed. But few countries have the backbone to say that it has the right to be.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
Considering the recent public announcement from bloomberg on their policy of appeasement and self-censorship toward mainland China I think it's safe to say similar policies exist elsewhere (either as a matter of policy or merely culture).
xiaoma 13y ago
Thank you for saying this. Taiwan has never been part of the PRC. Before its current democratic system, it was a one-party state run by the KMT. Before that, it was under Japanese rule from the 1890s until WWII. Taiwan hasn't been governed by a China government since the Qing Dynasty. That particular country is long gone and is about as connected to the modern day PRC as Hungary is to the Hapsburg Empire. It's not reunification if the two weren't previously unified.

singold 13y ago

One page article http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/taiwans-white-shirt-army-spurred-by-facebook-takes-on-political-parties/2013/11/10/4a1fde52-46e4-11e3-bf0c-cebf37c6f484_print.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/taiwans-whi...

paulhauggis 13y ago

"The rebellious youths in the movement say they are less concerned about what Taiwan calls itself — sovereign, independent or a self-governing area within China" If Taiwan was an area within China, they wouldn't be able to have this group in the first place and most forms of Democracy would be gone. This is why many of the people are so passionate about their beliefs in staying independent. At the moment, it truly is a free country. I know many of the social meetup group sites don't work well in China, because you aren't allowed to meet with more than 10 people at a time. I believe it's because the government is afraid you will try to organize a big group to overthrow them. Here are some more examples: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23795294 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23795294 Here is a breakdown of their new "rumor" law: http://www.dailydot.com/news/china-decree-online-rumors-prison-time/ http://www.dailydot.com/news/china-decree-online-rumors-pris...

zhemao 13y ago
I think you misunderstand the political debate. Neither the KMT nor the DPP wants Taiwan to be under the control of the PRC government. The difference is that the KMT wants Taiwan and the mainland to be reunited under the ROC government, while the DPP wants Taiwan to be an independent country.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  Largely correct, though I question if the "retaking" of China is actually still a part of KMT party doctrine. I don't think anyone seriously expects Taiwan and the mainland to be runited under the flag of the ROC - and if you suggested it people might look at you (rightly) as insane.
- paulhauggis 13y ago
  My point is that it seems this group doesn't care about being part of China, but they should.
  - zhemao 13y ago
    You're saying that they should care because if Taiwan was part of China, it wouldn't be a free country anymore. I am saying that this is false because neither of the two main parties wants Taiwan to fall under the control of the PRC regime, which is what makes the mainland unfree. What the KMT wants is for Taiwan and the mainland to be reunited under an ostensibly democratic regime. This is, of course, unlikely to happen unless something changes drastically on the mainland, making it somewhat of a pointless debate as far as Taiwanese politics is concerned. Unless the PRC invades Taiwan or collapses, there isn't much of a chance for reunification. What the whiteshirts want is to refocus attention on issues that affect Taiwan in the present day.