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You need to be able to state that we observe black people to be less intelligent before you can begin to discuss possible explanations. Once you can say the ab

You need to be able to state that we observe black people to be less intelligent before you can begin to discuss possible explanations. Once you can say the above, then you can begin asking why it is so, and you may determine that it is in-fact because of a systematic oppression.

mikeash 13y ago
You only need to be able to state that if it is in fact what is observed. Which of course it is not, because "intelligent" is an extremely vague and ill-defined concept. That's really the root of the problem, I think. People take data like, "blacks scored X percent lower on the John Doe IQ test (1987 edition)" and in turn say "black people are less intelligent". Then when you criticize it, they tell you not to shoot the messenger and they're just reporting what the data says. This kind of shortcut is pretty common, of course. "People with net worth below X have a higher rate of conviction" becomes "poor people commit more crimes" and nobody really bats an eye. But that doesn't mean it's correct, it just means that people generally don't care. Do this in the context of race, though, and suddenly people do care. And why shouldn't they? There's a long history of abuse in this area. IQ tests have long been biased toward the culture (and thus, almost inevitably, its majority race) of those who create the tests. People have then taken the results from these tests, concluded that their disfavored race is inherently inferior in some way, and used that to justify all kinds of bad treatment. And of course this is not a solved problem, not by a long shot. Truly unbiased IQ tests are an open problem, and then there's a whole extra layer of exactly what IQ is, why it's worth measuring, and what it leaves out. By all means, discuss the data. But don't use the data to reach an unsupported conclusion that sounds kind of like data, proclaim it as fact, and then complain about "political correctness" when you get shut down. And think very, very carefully about what exactly the data says, versus what you think it implies, before making factual statements.
- gizmo686 13y ago
  Yes, social sciences are extremely hard to get right, and in general you have to be very careful anytime you try to paraphrase (or even quote) a scientific paper. However, my point is that the response to claims such as "black people are less intelligent" should be rooted in intelligent responses, such as the ones you made. What I am objecting to is responding to such claims by calling them racist, which completely fails to explore why they are incorrect.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    I agree that the responses should be intelligent as well. But that does not make "we observe black people to be less intelligent" to be any more of a reasonable statement, nor does it mean that we need an environment in which you can say that without repercussions in order for knowledge to be gained.

mikeash 13y ago

You only need to be able to state that if it is in fact what is observed. Which of course it is not, because "intelligent" is an extremely vague and ill-defined concept. That's really the root of the problem, I think. People take data like, "blacks scored X percent lower on the John Doe IQ test (1987 edition)" and in turn say "black people are less intelligent". Then when you criticize it, they tell you not to shoot the messenger and they're just reporting what the data says. This kind of shortcut is pretty common, of course. "People with net worth below X have a higher rate of conviction" becomes "poor people commit more crimes" and nobody really bats an eye. But that doesn't mean it's correct, it just means that people generally don't care. Do this in the context of race, though, and suddenly people do care. And why shouldn't they? There's a long history of abuse in this area. IQ tests have long been biased toward the culture (and thus, almost inevitably, its majority race) of those who create the tests. People have then taken the results from these tests, concluded that their disfavored race is inherently inferior in some way, and used that to justify all kinds of bad treatment. And of course this is not a solved problem, not by a long shot. Truly unbiased IQ tests are an open problem, and then there's a whole extra layer of exactly what IQ is, why it's worth measuring, and what it leaves out. By all means, discuss the data. But don't use the data to reach an unsupported conclusion that sounds kind of like data, proclaim it as fact, and then complain about "political correctness" when you get shut down. And think very, very carefully about what exactly the data says, versus what you think it implies, before making factual statements.

gizmo686 13y ago
Yes, social sciences are extremely hard to get right, and in general you have to be very careful anytime you try to paraphrase (or even quote) a scientific paper. However, my point is that the response to claims such as "black people are less intelligent" should be rooted in intelligent responses, such as the ones you made. What I am objecting to is responding to such claims by calling them racist, which completely fails to explore why they are incorrect.
- mikeash 13y ago
  I agree that the responses should be intelligent as well. But that does not make "we observe black people to be less intelligent" to be any more of a reasonable statement, nor does it mean that we need an environment in which you can say that without repercussions in order for knowledge to be gained.